Did Satan's Fall Corrupt Nature?

Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.

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00:00 - Introduction
01:58 - Table of Contents
04:09 - What Are Stars?
04:52 - Do Angels Build Nature?
06:12 - 1) The Challenge of Natural Evil
15:32 - 2) A Taxonomy of Theodicies
17:55 - Denial of Pre-Human Natural Evil
21:03 - Denial of Traditional Doctrine of God
22:18 - Developmentalism
23:58 - Fallenness
28:49 - 3) Angelic Fall Theodicy
31:39 - Hans Urs von Balthasar
33:03 - C.S. Lewis
36:04 - The Silmarillion
40:29 - 4) Classical Angelology
40:57 - Augustine
44:11 - Thomas Aquinas
47:15 - 5) Defending Angelical Fall Theodicy
51:45 - What About Atheism?
52:02 - What About Young-Earth Creationism?
52:50 - A Biblical Demonology
56:27 - Re-enchanting the World

[the_year]

Thanks Gavin. You're content is like a breath of fresh air.

[Nighthawkinlight]

Very compelling. Yes, I got to the end. I think it couldn't be more clear in scripture that the spiritual directly effects the physical, and even the end state of creation is for the spiritual and physical to be manifested and united as one.

[zachkrych]

As a veterinarian, and a pastor, I have thought about animal death/pain for years. It’s been hard to have an exact explanation, and I’ve dwelled on a mixture of developmentalism + fallenness (as you’ve called them) but I think this adds an immensely valuable element!
Excited for more, Thank you Gavin!

[stueve]

Gavin: My weirdest theological view
Me: Looks like I have a new theological view
Made it to the end. Wonderful, and enchanting video! Love you Gavin!

[BensXpresso]

Made it all the way to the end 🙌🏽.

"I'd rather just believe and be duped. I'd rather believe in God and believe in angels and be duped than not believe. Because I've stared down the other direction and not only do I think it's less plausible, but it's just such a barren worldview...a Christian imagination allows you to look up at the stars at night and it couldn't be more enchanting. What you're looking at is beauty and wonder, and there is something behind it all." Love it 🙌🏽🔥

[redbearwarrior]

Made it to the end! I'm a young earth creationist and I still think you are awesome! And no, this is not a crazy idea. Like you pointed out. Even those of us in the YEC camp still have to address things like the serpent in the garden being evil before the fall of man. Also where did Adam's evil desire come from before his fall? How can a perfect being even consider sinning much less choose to actually sin? This has led me to make a distinction between the ideas that Adam was perfect at his creation as apposed to just being merely sinless at his creation. He was capable of sin and in that sense he was not perfect like YHWH is perfect Who cannot sin. Very interesting video.

[JoelFischer]

I made it all the way to the end :) I first started to feel the re-enchantment of the spiritual world when I read Heiser’s “The Unseen Realm”, and continued as I recently read “Out of the Silent Planet” and “Perelandra” for the first time (That Hideous Strength is next on my list!). I think Heiser’s views segue nicely with the theodicy presented here, but it’s a tough sell for many modern Christians. As a long-time old earth creationist myself, the problem of natural evil has always been my most difficult challenge, so thanks for the video and giving me some more categories to connect different parts of theology together.

[NomosCharis]

Made it to the end. This idea helped me yrs ago to let go of my YE Creationism. So glad to hear that it has a heritage. I must say, you have inspired me to imagine further.

I still have some questions and hangups, but this explanation seems at least as plausible as any other to my mind.

[DanielApologetics]

Interesting thoughts. Been writing on a small book on this and divine hiddenness for last 10 months. We need to get vocal on these topics to minimize the amount who jump on shallow slogans and memes to them as a serious response.

[stevenjames]

Thank you. I watched the whole video. Only my second video of you I’ve seen. Subbed. 😊

TBH, I’m not a Christian, but I very much want to be. I really want the Bible to be true, but I can’t simply make myself believe. I’ve tried. I’ve visited many churches and had long conversations with many pastors over the last few years.

So, I consider myself an agnostic now, but can’t fully believe in atheism or strict naturalism either. I’m kind of in a limbo state now following a Buddhist path. Yet, I find the lack of a meaningful theology in Buddhism unsatisfying.

I’m a conservative and reject many of the secular degeneracies I see around me in the modern world. I believe in objective morality. Yet, despite all of my seeking, I have yet to find God.

I keep looking for God, but this issue of natural evil is one of the two biggest hurdles against believing in God as presented in the Bible. (The other big hurdle for me is the topic of divine hiddenness, btw.)

I need to marinate in your ideas more, but I very much appreciate the food for thought!

As a normal person (and not a philosopher per se), I don’t know all of the history or people or works you mentioned. I was happy to learn about some new viewpoints that seem to align with my own intuitions, such as that this earthly life is a kind of training camp for the afterlife. I think suffering is absolutely necessary for the development of our souls and our morality.

I even had an instant epiphany (which I quickly rejected - but still could make for an interesting fiction book) when you noted that demons are incarcerated in the earth. I wondered… what if we are actually all demons ourselves and our lives are attempts to learn from suffering and redeem ourselves so we can one day re-enter God’s heavenly kingdom?!? But then I quickly realized that the Bible clearly delineates a difference between humans and demons (or angels). While it was an interesting thought, I don’t think there is any solid theological basis to believe that our souls are actually fallen angels. As I said though, maybe it could make for a good fiction book!

[leas-ylkp]

I made it to the end!! This is one of your most exciting videos yet. Gavin, thanks for sharing your devotion to God by edifying us! Usually I feel too intimidated by your vast knowledge of church history to bother trying to dialogue, but this was super relatable. To look up at the stars and at the beauty of nature is something that God gifted us to make His existence apparent on earth. Acknowledging and engaging these kinds of mysteries really does bring enchantment into one's soul - it's the best way to feel like a kid full of wonder all over again! And didn't Jesus say to be like the little children is what we ought to aim for in some way? To love fellowship with each other in the way of discussing God's amazing and mysterious creations and providence will never get us to the final answer but it's endless fun (definitely the opposite of a barren perspective) and these puzzles are one of the many things to look forward to - I personally can't wait to know all the answers to these paradoxical riddles once we are with God! ❤😊 Thank you again for this video!

[sparkyarc]

On the same page of believing the wonder as the half has never yet been told! You made an impact with this treatise 😊

[Marvel]

Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you very much for making this video. With every video you make, I feel like I have another puzzle piece to help build my unified worldview as a Christian.

I've recently been so discouraged and angered by seeing self-identifying Christians online and around me characterized by so much hate, ignorance, and general distain for seeking truth outside their bubles of familiarity. I can't even talk about Christian theology with fellow Christians because many of them are so stubbornly and bitterly set in their views regardless of what scripture, the historic Church, or the natural world teaches us.

Seeing your work and your own character represent a body of Christians who can be lovers of knowledge, reason, history, and above all; peace and charity, has been incredibly helpful to me. Please continue producing these videos, and God bless.

[Vanessa-gizm]

Watch the whole thing! I recently read Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and he spoke on similar ideas. It was really interesting and gave interesting perspective on the effect of the angels' fall. He explained it a bit differently but they both share a similar premise. He didn't really use early church historians as reference so it's cool to see what the early Christians may have believed. Granted his focus wasn't on the corrupting of nature but this is such a facinating topic that I always have a hard time articulating. These are definitely things that have come up in my mind in passing so thanks for another cool video and giving all the references!

[chadster]

Made it through! That’s saying something coming from a guy with two boys, aged 6 and 3.
I’ve been cautiously walking down this path for a couple years now.
Michael Heiser really opened up a new world for me and I feel this just adds layers to those thoughts. Loved the work you’ve done bridging the early church fathers with Tolkien and Lewis. Great stuff Gavin. Thank you.

[ProfYaffle]

That Hideous Strength my favourite too.
But Out of the Silent Planet, that's my favourite favourite. Now I need to keep listening

[tategarrett]

What a beautiful way to reinvigorate our wonder at the world around us.

[noobitronius]

Thanks Gavin. You don't scare us young-earth (leaning) creationists away - at least not all of us. This is a new concept for me, but seems accessible to the young-earth view, and I am interested to learn more about it.
Looking forward to hearing your engagement with Augustine's doctrine of creation and young/old earth creationism!

[ChristianLight]

made it till the end. Great content.

To me the angelic fall theodicy seems quite and intuitive reading of scripture.

[dina.k]

Oh, the places and spaces I haven't dared to enter on my own.. 😅 thank you Gavin.