When Even Awareness Stops: New Meditation Research | Ruben Laukkonen PhD

Can we turn off our awareness (i.e., conscious metacognition) in meditation and then stay in that state for days without water, food, or going to the bathroom? A recent study by Dr. Ruben Laukkonen on the cessation of awareness in advanced meditation practitioners confirms this. In this interview, Natalia Vorontsova talks with Ruben about his research and its implications for our understanding of the nature of reality. This is a deep, yet light-hearted, conversation about mind, consciousness, time, AI, and the future of science, especially since Ruben is also an experienced meditation practitioner.

You can find out more about work of Dr. Laukkonen here:

00:00:00 Interview and guest intro
00:01:56 Common passions in life.
00:03:40 On meditation: does it include introspection, and everything related to mind and self?
00:09:38 Mind, self, and non-duality.
00:19:03 Research on the cessation of consciousness in advanced meditation practitioners.
00:29:00 Meditation: the cessation of consciousness vs. ‘tukdam’ state. Other research findings.
00:35:43 Is there a story to tell after consciousness turns on?
00:39:09 Groundlessness of mind and freedom: the most important discovery.
00:44:16 The reality model: mind, interdependence, and emptiness.
00:49:47 God and suffering according to non-Eastern traditions vs. insights from meditation.
00:54:02 Why did life emerge and become conscious?
01:02:01 Our evolution: merging with AI - intelligent, conscious or even enlightened? Are we also a 'simulation'?
01:19:59 Co-creation of reality: conscious vs. unconscious self.
01:27:33 The 'here and now': what is the present moment? The nature of time.
01:37:08 What is consciousness? A new paper: “An active inference theory of consciousness”.
01:58:34 The role of insight and subjective experience in inner transformation. Cognitive deconstruction and construction practices.
02:07:50 Metaphysical aspects of research findings: reductionist materialism and mind vs. matter.
02:13:06 Ruben’s own meditation experience and fundamental shifts.
02:19:05 The future of science: bridging the scientific method and the wisdom traditions.
02:22:45 Online resources and references. Closing remarks.

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[dhammaboy]

I'm doing a PhD in embodied cognition - which combines Buddhism, Western phenomenonology, biology & Neuro-science - so I found this discussion absolutely fascinating. There is so much I can draw on here for my own thesis - I'll have to listen again!
Thanks Essentia Foundation & Rubin!

[hugothales]

It's so impressive how Ruben can respond to the most difficult and fundamental questions. Thank you both for the interview! Thank you Essentia for providing this brainfood to a wide audience. Also want to mention the extraordinary audio quality which comfortably allows listening for 2+ hours.

[ZBB]

Being a Drukpa monk i was familiar with thukdam, but being a scientist i thought it was crazy until i read the physician reports from the death of the 16th Karmapa who died in Zion, Illinois, and realized it was all true! Had not heard of neruda samapati, not being extremely familiar with Theraveda, so i am SO glad you did this!! Incredible!!

[gendashwhy]

One of the best guests Essentia has had to date! Mind your own business, people. Literally!

[PeterIntrovert]

This discussion feels sooo smoooth to me. I appreciate perceived synergy between the two of you. Many insights well articulated and accurate.

Models presented are already integrated in me. But it's cutting edge of scientifi understanding. I think Ruben would like The Philosophy of Difference I am studying now.

I don't have anything against Bernardo's view but some points presented here in contrast resonate with me more.

Thank you for participating in my reality. ☺🙏🏻❤

[pp-jbyf]

difficult to put into words but beautifully done. congratulations to our younger generation commng to grips with the real real

[Dion_Mustard]

I have had what is termed "out of body experiences", and my awareness was definitely not inside my body. It became "non-local" so to speak and I was able to "fly" and travel to a specific place and watch what was happening.

[onkar]

i am glad this knowledge choose to bestowe itself upon me

[keithmetcalf]

Outstanding exchange. The leaves are changing in Maryland, i went on a very long walk today, its a beautiful day out again. This exchange synced beautifully with my walk today. Thank you both ☀️🍂❤️✌️

[supachillakilla]

So much knowledge its crazy. And so down to earth

[woodandwandco]

To understand meditation, one must read the source texts. Meditation is a general and confusing term. It does not point to a specific practice. There is no "fundamental way" to meditate. Meditation is a process requiring multiple steps, and in its most basic formulation, those steps are 8.

1. Yama (abstinences)
By training directing the will, one gains the ability to gain distance from compulsion and to observe it. This is the first step. Without creating this distance, there can be no meditation.

2. Niyama (observances)
By following the guidelines of cleanliness, contentment, discipline, study of the self, and surrendering to the highest state of being, one develops the positive patterns of behavior required for meditation.

3. Asana (posture)
By holding the physical body in specific postures, one creates a conducive atmosphere within the body for stillness, calmness, and balance of physical wellbeing. Without practicing Asana, there can be no meditation.

4. Pranayama (breathing technique)
Breathing is work upon the physical body. Essentially, the breath occurs in patterns. These patterns must be observed. The science of Pranayama is for the purpose of developing the sense for the most intimate physical activities and how they affect the body and mind. Without developing a deep intimacy with our physiological processes, there can be no distance from the body and mind, hence no meditation.

5. Pratyahara (withdrawal of sense perceptions)
When you withdraw your sense perception after completing the above steps, all senses begin to observe the inner processes: The visual field behind the eyelids, the auditory field within the brain, the sense of touch in relation to the inner organs, the sense of smell of the breath through breathing through the nose, and the sense of taste of the palate within the mouth. Without directing the senses inwards and observing the inner processes of body and mind, there can be no meditation.

6. Dharana (one-pointed concentration)
First, focus must be on an object. Any object. This focus must be honed. The flame of a candle is recommended, but a doorknob will do just as well. Training the faculty of concentration on an external object can lead to a state of concentration with eyes closed that is similar to looking at an external object, except within the mind, the object can be seen from all perspectives at once. This is the goal of one-pointed concentration. Concentration means both focus and intensification of density at once. The process could be analogized to trying to create a blackhole within the mind. What the blackhole does in the universe is to fold spacetime upon itself. The same is the prerequisite to meditation.

7. Dhyana (meditation)
It is only after all the above processes have been honed that meditation begins. Dhyana is the cessation of mind. It is only after mind has been observed sufficiently that mind and its processes can be selectively turned on and off as needed. In order to reach this state, while remaining conscious of one's inner experience, one must follow the above steps. Skipping steps will lead to slipping and falling back in terms of progress. This is why most human beings cannot meditate. Dhyana is a state in which waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, are observed simultaneously and continuously. To know if one is in meditation, one can observe one's sleep. Continuous lucid dreamless sleep is an indicator of ongoing meditation. Meditation is not an activity. It is a state of being. Meditation is the natural state. If we were all in this state, confusion and conflict would be impossible.

8. Samadhi (absorption)
Samadhi is the natural consequence of meditativeness. Once the identity is no longer with body and mind, the identity suddenly becomes boundless, taking on its natural qualities. In this state, the external observer looking at the body of the individual in Samadhi will experience them to be in a state of cessation. In reality, the awareness is completely directed at itself in this state. It is a state of recursive awareness of awareness. Once awareness is recursive as such, something beyond body and mind emerges into experience. The person ceases to exist. The persona ceases to exist. The identity as such ceases to be attached to any manifestation. The experience of body and mind cease. In their place is the experience of bliss, or the baseline state. It is from this natural state that the wisest of human beings across the ages have expressed that the Self is the same in All. This is a clear indication of transcending the first (I-me), second (I-thou), and third (I-them) person perspectives, opening up the fourth person (I-I) perspective, or Turiya. It is from the state of Turiya that one dissolves into all, where waking, dreaming, and deep sleep are one and the same in one's experience. The I-me relation is that of Self to Ego. The I-thou and I-them relations are those of Self with perceived other. The I-I relation is that of Self with Self alone. That Self is the same in All, and that Self is the true Self. It is only through following the above-mentioned practices that this experience may become a reality for all.

[kafkaten]

I hope The Essential Foundation will consider creating some podcasts out of these great talks. Some of us have commutes and/or jobs where this would be perfect listening!

[RodCornholio]

Ruben needs to get on _New Thinking Allowed_ with Mishlove.

[loveoutpouring]

What he is referring to is what Ramana Maharshi would call Mona Laya, temporary (Laya) cessation of mind (Mona) waves vs Mona Nasa, permanent (Nasa) destruction of mind waves. Regardless of how long someone's is in Mona Laya the mind will pick up right where it left off before entering the state, hence no change. Whereas Mona Nasa leads to permanent change and eventually Self-realization.

[steve]

Around 1:25 you are speaking of an ultimate changing reality... I would argue however, that constant change implies a non-changing background; without it, change cannot be detected. This is why concepts like Nirguna Brahman and Maya (or Saguna Brahman) in Hinduism, and 'Buddha Nature' in Buddhism, arise. Thus, an unchanging 'reality' must exist that, through reflection (or 'Maya'), manifests as a co-dependent 'changing reality.' Ultimately, these two aspects are non-dual." The 'changing reality' being an 'appearance' within the 'non-changing' reality. I love this dialogue, btw!!! Brilliant, and insightful!

[sanjayseroha]

He is talking about the state of Samadhi. All possible phenomena happens in One non-dual consciousness. It is wrong to say cessation of consciousness itself 🙏

[grzegorz]

Terminology is essential. The best description of what is going on during described cessation is given by Rupert Spira. It is cessation of mind, not consciousness. Mind being the thought and perception, inner and outer. Consciousness does not cease. If it did, what or who would be able to refer to described insight of Freedom?

[garywhite]

52: 20 Interdependence, compassion,
action ❤

[joshuasmiley]

First, this is a great channel! Second, I love Battlestar Galactica and the psychology behind it. It seems almost as if the sci-fi in that series has manifested our real science AI/AGI fact future. Or At least within a modest relative accuracy. The question of are we the chicken or egg as far as alien intelligence or just ancient intelligence, I think this is still within the boundaries of question

[sugarfree]

Reading the paper right now, so pleased to see that there is such a lot of good quality research going on into the practice and effects of meditation, looking forward to reading more.
"Groundlessness of the mind" could be represented by the idea that 'ground' is only meaningful in a system that is pervaded by gravity. With no gravity, ground is just another surface and not the one to which we are always pulled or pushed. Gravity can be likened to the investment of one's experience in one's idea of self; when that investment is beyond a certain point, we can no longer tell the difference between what is happening and what we are - which is how most of us live. Everything is happening to us and we draw all phenomena towards ourselves, like gravity. Meditation progressively dissolves that force and opens to freedom.