Did the Russian Winter beat the Germans? And more... TIK Q&A 2

Many people believe that the Russian Winter stopped the Germans outside Moscow. Historians no longer think this is the case. In this video, I discuss many topics, including German logistics, Russian or Soviet sources, the Operation Barbarossa Plan, whether it was a viable strategy for the Germans to retreat to the 1941 pre-Barbarossa borders, and more! All these questions came from my Patreons who pledge $5 or more.

This video is discussing events or concepts that are academic, educational and historical in nature. This video is for informational purposes and was created so we may better understand the past and learn from the mistakes others have made.

Here’s some other videos you may be interested in -

My video entitled “Why I'm Passionate about HISTORY and What Got Me Into it”

History isn’t as boring as some people think, and my goal is to get people talking about it. I also want to dispel the myths and distortions that ruin our perception of the past by asking a simple question - “But is this really the case?”. I have a 2:1 Degree in History and a passion for early 20th Century conflicts (mainly WW2). I’m therefore approaching this like I would an academic essay. Lots of sources, quotes, references and so on. Only the truth will do.

[TheImperatorKnight]

*Video Timestamps*

*Q1* [Jen and Aaron] Can you talk a bit about the Russian Winter of 1941? And why has so little been written about the 1941-42 Soviet winter offensive? 00:35

*Q2* [Semih Sander] What if the German Army retreated to the pre-Barbarossa positions upon failure to take Moscow, maybe as early as November 41? 09:10

*Q3* [Olaf] Assuming that an important objective of Barbarossa was to secure access to raw materials, such as oil and grain; how did the Nazi's initially try to accomplish that? 12:13

*Q4* [Ken Goss] How did the Soviets have enough fuel for their 42-45 offensives? 16:10

*Q5* [Aaron again] Why do you (TIK) say the Germans replenished their losses when Glantz says Hitler was told they were a million men understrength in 1942? 19:27

*Q6* [SparkyBoomer and Craig] Can you further elaborate about their issues with logistics and the apparently long suffering logistics officers who were seemingly constantly ignored? And who were the people responsible for rear echelon logistical security? 26:07


*Q8* [Alexandre] Did the Battle of Stalingrad impact the theory of Urban Warfare? And how much did the Battle of Berlin owe to the Battle of Stalingrad in terms of Urban Warfare doctrine? 43:17

*Q9* [Milan] Are you going to further specialize on the eastern front, especially bringing russian sources to the english-speaking audience? 48:34

*Q10* [Kirin] What do you think of Budyonny? 52:50

*Q11* [Timo] How is your German coming along? What is the first German source you want to use once you master the language enough? 57:33

*Q12* [Ricky] What books would you recommend for the North African theater in WWII? 59:26

*Q13* [Gregory Mackay] Were you able to find any good books or papers on tanks, and if so what were they? 01:01:53

*Q14* [Jen] What's your opinion on Alternate History and self-described "Educational" channels? 01:03:37

*Books used/referenced in the video*

Liedtke, G. “Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo-German War 1941-1943.” Helion & Company LTD, 2016.
Pitt, B. “The Crucible of War Volume 1: Wavell’s Command. The Definitive History of the Desert War." Cassell & Co, 2001.
Pitt, B. “The Crucible of War Volume 2: Auchinleck’s Command. The Definitive History of the Desert War." Cassell & Co, 2001.
Pitt, B. “The Crucible of War Volume 3: Montgomery and Alamein. The Definitive History of the Desert War." Cassell & Co, 2001.
Pöhlmann, M. "Der Panzer und die Mechanisierung des Krieges: Ein deutsche Geschichte 1890 bis 1945." Schöningh, 2016.
Stahel, D. “The Battle for Moscow.” Cambridge University Press, Kindle, 2015.
Stahel, D. “Operation Barbarossa: Germany’s Defeat in the East.” Cambridge University Press, Kindle, 2010.
Wette, W. & Ueberschär, G. "Stalingrad: Mythos und Wirklichkeit einer Schlacht." 2013.
Wette, W. "The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality." Harvard University Press, 2006.
“Germany and the Second World War: Volume IV/I, The Attack on the Soviet Union.” Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Research Institute for Military History) Potsdam, Germany. Oxford University Press, 2015.

The books on tanks (and guns) that I said weren’t great -

Fletcher, D. "Crusader and Covenanter Cruiser Tanks 1939-45." Osprey Publishing, 2007.
Henry, C. "British Anti-tank Artillery 1939-45." Osprey Publishing, 2004.
Henry, C. "The 25-pounder Field Gun 1939-72." Osprey Publishing, 2011.
Newsome, B. "Valentine Infantry Tank 1938-45." Osprey Publishing, 2016.
Perrett, B. "Panzerkampfwagen III Medium Tank 1936-44." Osprey Publishing, 2009.
Perrett, B. "Panzerkampfwagen IV Medium Tank 1936-45." Osprey Publishing, 2007.
Zaloga, S. "BT Fast Tank: The Red Army's Cavalry Tank 1931-45." Osprey Publishing, 2016.
Zaloga, S. "T-26 Light Tank: Backbone of the Red Army." Osprey Publishing, 2015.
Zaloga, S. "T-34/76 Medium Tank 1941-45." Osprey Publishing, 2010.
Zaloga, S. "M3 & M5 Stuart Light Tank 1940-45." Osprey Publishing, 2009.

Thanks for watching!

[mihaiserafim]

You open a Red Army and you find another Red Army, you open that Red Army and find yet another Red Army... So the Germans were defeated by General Matryoshka not General Winter.

[Logotic]

I'd recommend Marshal Zhukov's autobiography, for many reasons, but his thoughts on weather are relevant here. "YOU THINK WE DIDN'T GET STUCK IN THE MUD!!?? YOU THINK WE DIDN'T FREEZE!!??"

Long story short, he didn't think highly of people who said the Germans were defeated by the weather.

[SNP-]

Step 1: Defeat the Red Army
Step 2: If Step 1 fails, see Step 3
Step 3: See Step 1 !

[Youbeentagged]

Germany: attacks Soviet Union
Soviet Union: counterattacks
Hitler: "it's freezing outside"

[pokemonleague]

Barbarosa in a nutshel:
Step 1: Defeat Red Army
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit

[TheGoodChap]

"The reason why the Soviets win is because they don't lose." -TIK

[jellyunicorn]

"we'll just draw a line from arkhangelsk to astrakhan"
hey works in hoi4

[day]

"The reason the Russians win is because they do not lose."
I always find it interesting that you still see this in Russians today, in everything they do up to and including how they play video games. Rather than Soviet leadership, this seems to be a mentality of the Russian culture. They simply refuse to lose, even when everything seems hopeless. To cite an interesting quote:

"What really scares me about the Reds is that they don’t follow the normal rules of alliances. Usually if you defeat an alliance they shatter. The Reds have lost all their territory and still come back with disciplined, vicious, and effective assaults against innumerable foes, and they’ve been in non-stop combat for almost three full years now. It’s just insane."
- 'The Mitanni', Goonswarm Spymaster, EVE Online, when talking about the Russian Red Alliance.

[stenrod]

Who would win?

"A number of various factors caused the German defeat"

vs:

"It's cold outside"

[CAT]

An important point to mention in regard to how the Soviets would have continued fighting even if Moscow were lost is that there was really no choice but to keep fighting.

As the Nazis invaded the USSR for the land, food, and raw materials to establish the dominance of the Aryan race, considering the people in the way of their conquest as not only expandable, but a direct threat to the genetic purity of Aryans. For the many ethnic groups of the USSR, the advancing German army was an existential threat to their survival, and to surrender was to guarantee the mass enslavement, murder, and relocation of tens of millions of people. *For this reason, even if taking Moscow would have rendered the Soviets incapable of resisting the Germans (which it wouldn't have), surrendering was not an option.*

I love your channel btw

[wuhbcku]

What is incredible from a western point of view is our winters. Always Winter !
Winter is a natural element to which we must adapt, quite simply. despite "warm clothes", the Russian Soldier also suffered from the extreme cold.
I am sad because i am a bad woman and not because i am a Russian woman, i am human first...
...and for harsh winters, I have no antifreeze in my blood.

[rexfrommn]

We know the Soviets had another Red Army of reserves when the Wehrmacht destroyed the frontier Soviet Army in the first few summer months of 1941. Yet, the Soviets were more prepared for war than people give them credit for despite their enormous losses. A couple points here listed below:

1. The Soviet Army under Timoshenko and Zhukov had major military reforms ongoing to remedy the shortcomings of the Finnish Winter War. These reforms were still ongoing on June 22, 1941. The Soviets needed another year to complete these reforms but you can see the marked improvements of the Soviet Army at the battle of Stalingrad in 1942/43. Rifle divisions were reduced from 14, 000 men to around 10, 000 men. Officer training and Noncom training was improved markedly. Infantry training also was improved too. The Soviets instituted streamlined reforms to their rifle divisions moving the artillery more to individual artillery divisions while rifle divisions received more antitank guns, mortars, and more automatic weapons, including submachine guns. Large unwieldly armored corps were reduced to armored brigades of about 90 tanks and 3, 400 men. The Soviets also introduced many rifle brigades of about 3, 600 men each. These smaller formations were easier for lesser experienced young officers to command but later on became the nucleous for new Soviet Rifle divisions as trained reserves were called up. The Soviets had around 15 MILLION trained men in reserves to call up for duty in 1941/42. Many more millions men could be called up to be trained for service. This manpower reserve gave the Soviet Union enormous fighting potential allowing it to keep SIX MILLION COMBAT TROOPS on the front for the entire war. Women were employed everywhere in the Soviet Army and Air Force. Women served as snipers, tank drivers, police, truck drivers, nurses, service troops, antiaircraft and combat aircrew/pilots.

2. The Soviet railway system functioned absolutely flawlessly. The Soviet railway system, despite heavy Luftwaffe bombing, moved ten of thousands of small to large factories to the Urals. The Soviet railway system moved tens of millions of skilled workers and their families East to the Urals too. The Soviet railway system also started mass producing many armored trains. The BP-35 armored train system was used up fighting ferociously in combat in 1941/42. These BP-35 armored trains were replaced with the more modern NKPS series (1941) more than 20 built, the OB-3 (1942) series armored trains with more than 60 built and BP-43 (1943) armored trains series of over 25 built. The Soviets railway system also built 110 flak trains of three to six cars with 37mm and 76mm flak guns. Many other smaller artillery trains and flak trains were constructed during the war in the scores or hundreds of examples. These flak trains and armored trains were involved in heavy combat in every major battle of the war on Soviet soil. The armored trains had antiaircraft guns and flak trains guarded major rail centers. These armored trains and flak trains took a regular steady toll of German Luftwaffe aircraft. The Soviet railway system was the primary arterial transportation system but it was also a strategic weapon of war on the Eastern front. Much of the Soviet Union is a sea of mud during the spring and fall seasons or during any winter time thaw. Railways were the only arteries of war that actually moved during these times. These flak trains and armored trains played critical roles in the fighting around Smolensk and Kiev, Odessa, Sebastopol, the battle for Moscow, the siege of Leningrad, the battle of Stalingrad and in many battles throughout the end of the war.

3. The Soviet wintertime military technology was superior to the Germans. Soviet tanks designs, like the T-34 medium and KV heavy tanks, were optimized for winter conditions. Soviet quilted military uniforms and boots kept Soviet soldiers warm during the cold arctic nights. Soviet lubricants for artillery guns and rifles were thinned down in viscosity, especially for arctic conditions. The point here is Soviet military equipment was optimized for winter combat. The Germans equipment froze to the ground or worked poorly in the winter. The Germans required many troops to stay up all night in shifts tending fires under tanks, starting vehicles and motorized equipment. This type of 24 hour work schedule made German troops exhausted playing a significant role in the battle of Moscow. It also wasted enormous amounts of fuel too for idling engines including fires to warm freezing German solders.

4. Soviet cavalry and partisan activity was stepped up in the winter of 1941/42. Brutal German treatment of Soviet civilians caused many to join the partisans. The Soviet Army used old biplanes, the Po-2, often piloted by women, to supply partisans with food, trained specialized officers, weapons, ammo, and to fly out wounded soldiers to the rear at night. Soviet cavalry moved during the night to hide out, scout and then plan tough attacks on German rear area garrison, supply centers, airfields and rear area infrastructure. These Soviet cavalry units fought dismounted with light field guns, mortars, and lots of automatic weapon including antitank rifles. These cavalry raids covered large distant areas of ground. The cavalry hid during the day, attacked at night and then moved on or retreated before major German responses could occur. The cavalry moved fine through forests, snow drifts and through frozen swamps where vehicles and men on foot had a hard time following.

5. The Soviet Air Force fought hard at night in 1941/42. The Soviet Air Force then made a strong comeback at the battle of Moscow. The Soviets came up with the good Yak series and Lavochkin series fighter planes. These improved Yaks and Lavochkin fighters eventually became superior to the Luftwaffe's Me-109 or FW-190. The Soviet Air Force kept the Luftwaffe from heavily bombing Moscow with the high altitude Mig fighter. The night attacks of the Soviet Air Force took their toll on German rear areas too. So despite having older aircraft in 1941/42, the Soviets bounced back quickly causing much trouble for the Germans.

To sum up these comments it is critical to remember all the strong actions the Soviet had taken in the 1930's to get ready for a war. The Soviet railway system evacuated industry. Plus, armored trains fought savagely in all the battles on the Eastern Front. The Soviet Army had 20, 000 plus light tanks of the T-26 and BT series both with 45mm guns. These light tanks were later supplemented by 6000 T-60 light tanks manufactured in 1941/42 and the 8200 T-70 light tank manufactured 1942/43. The T60's and T70's kept the Soviet Army in the fight in the hard first year of the war. All these light tanks suffered heavy losses but these all too a toll on German infantry and armor with deadly close range attacks supporting rifle divisions and rifle brigades. Each one of these Soviet light tanks had to be dealt with by the Germans causing casualties and time delays. These light tanks did as much to kill Germans at the critical beginning of the war as anything else. The T-34 and KV production went down for a while as the factories moved to the Urals. The T-60's and improved T-70's were good infantry support tanks. The Soviet learned to camouflage their light tanks using them in ambush and for infantry support. I think way too many historians forget how important these T-60's and T-70's werer to the Soviet Army while production of the T-34 and KV was relocated and restarted in the Urals. We forget about these light tanks but they were present in every major battle of WW 2 along side the T-34 KV and other tanks. The T-70 tank was turned into the very successful SU-76 gun platform with over 12, 000 manufactured during WW2.

[EMM]

So the lesson is
A. The German's terrible logistic
cost them Barbarossa
B. Memes are not always correct

[fuser]

It's ridiculous that people even need to be told about this. Not just WW2 even Napoleonic war, FFS check the date when Napoleon begin his retreat, it's not winter.

[Mortablunt]

If you want something interesting, contrary to the "invading Russia in winter meme", the failed invasions are usually started in Summer. As for foes who invaded in winter, the Commonwealth, Swedes, Mongols, they usually actually won. So yes invading Russia in winter is a good idea.

[nigelbagguley]

For coverage of the Battle of Rhzev, the series "Soviet Storm" is one of the few places to find actual accounts, including Red Army battlefield maps and notes.

[SinOfAugust]

It is hard to make a nation surrender after you started fighting a war of annihilation. Armistice gains defeated nation almost nothing. It’s do or die.

[radoslawpiotrowski]

Summary:
1. Barbarossa was a plan without any constructive targets in perspective, just to defeat Red Army.
2. German preparation (stockpiles of materials, human resources, equipment, etc.) before invasion was more of a good wish than solid economical calculation.
3. Germans are not that good with building supply lines in the east.
4. Soviet hospitality can be extremely cold.
Why this war lasted that long? They should gone confused, cold and lost in Russian steppes. Hände hoch and Siberian vacation... meanwhile retreat took a lot of time and Germans managed to employ (too late) lots of military inventions during that time. Fatalities went in tens of millions and now instead of solid historical basis we got alternative history... somebody, give me grenade.

[masugoupil]

I think it was historian John Keegan who said something along the lines of:

“Battles are won not when the enemy is defeated, but when their will to resist is. The Soviet Union’s will to resist was never defeated.”