The German Problem

Ep.404

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[jeromelukas]

As a German myself I am a bit surprised that the side-effects of and aftermaths of WWI are not taken into consideration here which played a vital role in the whole story:

1) Germany was not part of the Versailles negotiations were reperations and cessions of territory were discussed therfore the peace treaty as a whole was widely viewed as a "Diktatfrieden" (dictated peace). Especially the part where Germany had to accept to be the only nation responsible for the atrocities happened felt revengeful and belittling to Germans

2) There was a common belief fueled by high ranking militaries and right wing politicians known as "Dolchstoßlegende" (Legend of the dagger blow).
It said that Germany was on the verge of winning the WWI and didn't lose in battle but communists, socialists and other democrats put a knife in the back of our forces politically home which led to the defeat.

The politicians and ambassadors who signed the Versailles treaty were part of this alleged conspiracy which led to the problem that the democratic system of the Weimar Republic was not accepted by a considerable part of the general society and the majority of industrials and upper class opposed democracy

3) On top of the economic crisis the winners of WWI still demanded that reperations had to be payed eventhough the nation was more or less bankrupt

This is why the Weimar Republic was characterized by instabillity right from the beginning and throughout its existence.

[TiGGowich]

German perspective here: My great grandparents and partly my grandparents grew up in Nazi Germany. My grandparents and my parents then lived through the socialist hell in East Germany.

You know how I know that the current situation is bad? I know, because all 3 generations continuously describe how much they feel reminded of the times that led up to these horrible regimes.

This applies to the corrupt political class, to the way information is presented in the (social) media landscape. This applies to how an elitest class demands everyone agree with their views and accept their decisions. This is reflected in the way that young people have absolutely no clue about the horrors of nazi or socialist regimes.

I feel devastated... I have grown up being taught to question everything and everyone all the time... but I see 90% of my peers who either refuse to think things through because it might make them uncomfortable, or they deny everything I say claiming I am some sort of conspiratorial nutjob, or in the worst case... they either just quietly go along with it, or actively support it to benefit on a personal level.

I am hopeless :(

[achimschmidt]

It is interesting when Anglo-Saxons discuss Germany. The cultural and historical background is very different from that of Germany, which makes it not easy to get to the actual reasons for the catastrophe. Many aspects have already been added in the comments, mostly by Germans, which says a lot about my compatriots. I'm excited to hear what historians will report about the catastrophe we're currently sliding into. However, Germany's role in this will be manageable.

[alexmukets]

The lack of historical knowledge from those two is astonishing!!

[fenriswolf-always-forward]

The reason was Versailles. You can analyse as much as you want, try to rewrite history, etc. If you take people's bread and coal, in the mud and freeze of Germany - they will rise up. My grandmother stole potatoes and coal as a 5 year old. That was her JOB.

[Flynn-dyzv]

Between 1871 en 1914, after the defeat against Prussia/Germany and having to give them Alsace-Lorraine, one of the only focus of our french politic, propaganda and education was "Get prepared, we got to have our revenge from the humiliation of 1870, we have to get back what we lost"... It's strange that they couldn't imagine that Germany would think the same thing after 1918...

[siegfriedlechler]

The German problem is that the English in Germany always see a problem out of sheer fear when Germany gets stronger. It was like that every time, before Bismark, before Hitler and now again. I think that's why the English are out of the EU.
And that is the English problem!

[rmnnbof]

I am already looking forward to Mr Peterson's discussion of "the Anglo-Saxon problem".

[marcelroy]

Interesting Dr Fergusson would say that Germany had exactly the same economic conditions as any other developed country during the Great Depression… I am no historian, but it seems to me that they went through defeat in WWI, followed by a revolution, unrealistic war reparations that were calibrated at crippling the economy (compulsory coal deliveries, I.e. a key production factor), long term foreign occupation of a great part of its industrial mainland (Rhineland), a horrendous starvation in the early 20‘s, run-away inflation in the early 20‘s way before the Krach in 1929, massive unemployment somewhere in the 40 percents…. Aside from Russia, which other European country faced similar conditions at the time (and see what happened there)? I cannot see that economic conditions can be disregarded as relevant as providing the necessary terrain for the Nazi ideology to take off. I wonder what would happen in e.g. France of the US if you had over 40% long term unemployment coupled with political humiliation?

[RealChrisFischer]

"History is written by the winners."
^Few people understand the full ramifications of this.

[karenk]

PhD history here. This is not my specialty, but I recently did some research on what democracies survived the interwar period and those that devolved into fascism. The common ground for the latter was their newness. All of those collapsed (including Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and Japan), versus the British-derived democracies that had been around and evolved for a long time, including the United States, that overwhelmingly responded more resiliently. Germany was invented as a nation only in 1871, and even then as a Prussian top-down version of democracy (which became the model that Meiji Japan adopted). Another aspect was the strength of entrenched land-owning aristocracies which maintained power even within new democratic forms of government. Of course, it is very complex, but the Treaty of Versailles is not responsible for the rise of fascism in Spain, Germany, Italy and Japan. It simply exacerbated inherent weaknesses - add the Great Depression and WWI and you have catastrophe.

[edonasol]

As a German, I see a paradigm shift in our society that worries me more and more: what you do or say is no longer relevant, what is more important (again) is who or what you are or which group you belong to. What amazes me above all is how confused ideologies from the USA are being adopted completely unthinkingly and uncritically and grafted onto our society, despite our different social and historical backgrounds. This trend has found its way into the German government in particular, which seems to be making more and more efforts to de-structuralise a hitherto functioning economic power for ostensibly moral but predominantly fantasised reasons.

[theodorearaujo]

With the recent testimony of the three University Presidents the German problem has become the American problem. Progressivism has a big downside.

[martijn]

13:39 Very true, it is fascinating to see. A remark by one of my university teachers was that it barely even mattered what he was saying, the crowd would go wild anyway. Such speeches were absolutely massive, with people stirring each other up in their extreme enthusiasm

[hvrtguys]

Mostly people in the past did what they were told. If they told you to go to church you went to church. You didn't socialize with people outside of your circle. If your dad was a plumber you became a plumber. You respected authority. When we look at the past we must remember that it had a mindset to it.

[josefacundoabiega]

In Argentina, when Perón was asked about how could he lead massive group of people he just said: I didn't lead them, I just saw where they were going and started walking in front of them.

[endresbielefeldt]

As a German i find myself to be a foreigner in my own land more and more. Perceiving this change in me as it happens and progresses sends shivers down my spine. It feels like you are not supposed to even question the standard narrative of any given topic and the ones i am wondering about are plenty. Political hypocricy, bad descisions regarding energy and migration politics, my change towards the carnivore lifestyle and this general mindset of seeing others failing as a good thing really leave me wondering if i am a bad culture fit or wether i just should give up and go down with the flow of everybody else.

[joedeegan]

I am an American who loves Germany having spent 30 months there in the US Army.

[humanist]

A very good explanation about the rising stages of totalitarism is given in the excellent book from Mattias Desmet (The Psychology of Totalitarism), which is partially based on Hannah Arendt's famous work. One of the conditions for totalitarism is to massively spread fear among the population (this is also how Göring answered the question about the secret of control). As a German, I can assure you that this country is the home of fear (German Angst). Each country has its specific flavor of collective tendencies. In Europe we can perceive this very clearly. Italy, France, even Switzerland all are very different to Germany. Each country has specific strengths and weaknesses. E.g. Germany has a strong tendency for obediance, law and order. Furthermore, different to the Anglo-american countries, it is missing several centuries of grown democracy. For these reasons, Germany is specifically vulnerable to totalitarian ideologies. The end of 1920's last century provided some specific window for that. And nowadays, by the way, we can notice early signs of totalitarism tendencies in many countries, which come in a cold, technocratic flavor, without political pop stars. And again, fear is spread among the population (climate, health, economy, war, whatever serves that goal). As mentioned in the video, every country needs to be vigilant. But especially Germany. One remedy is when many people begin to work on their personal development (individuation), so that they are not so easy to manipulate anymore. The German authors Raymond Unger and Hans-Joachim Maaz have published many good books in this direction.

[joergsi]

What was not mentioned in this discussion was the state that Germany was during the great depression. In a nutshell, Germany had areas which were facing local civil wars. In addition, the parties were acting like mobsters, the SPD, KPD and NSDAP Members were beating the crap out of each others, the result was the founding of "protection groups" within the parties, Reichsbanner for the SPD and SA for the NSDAP. I'm qite sure that this kind of unrest did not happen in the USA.