What PSA Really Teaches About Jesus - Answering Mike Winger E3

Episode 3/15

Continuing our response to Mike Winger's defense of Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA), we address his claim Athanasius taught PSA by examining his actual writings on the work of Christ.

As in past responses, we will continue to provide quotes from @MikeWinger, as well as clips & quotes from various men such as James White @AominOrg, Wayne Grudem, RC Sproul Sr @ligonier, Todd White @ToddWhiteLC, RC Sproul Jr, Alex Metherell & Brian Zahnd @WOLCTV.

This series of videos intends to provide Mike Winger with a respectful response & counter-argument. While he has asserted those who deny PSA do so by misrepresentation && an anachronistic handling of the data, it is our contention that he is the one who has done this very thing - albeit, we do not believe he has done so intentionally. Instead, we believe Mike's sincerely mistaken; the result of his imposing a bias onto the data.

"Did Athanasius Teach Penal Substitution?" The answer is a resounding, "No!"

#PenalSubstitution #Atonement #MikeWinger

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Books Referenced in this video:

📚 On the Incarnation: Saint Athanasius

Idol Killer receives a small commission on purchases which use the above links.

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Mike's Teaching on PSA:

▶️ The Real History of Penal Substitutionary Atonement

▶️ Where The Old Testament Teaches Penal Substitution

▶️ This Is How The Cross Works

▶️ What Romans Really Tells Us About the Cross and How it Saves

▶️ They Are Trying to Shame Us out of Good Theology by Misrepresenting Penal Substitution

▶️ Answering The TOUGHEST Objections to Penal Substitution

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Timestamps:

1:45 Mike's 14 Patristic Sources
2:20 Modus Tollens
4:44 Pretending Athanasius held PSA (w James White)
5:58 Making Thomas Aquinas Protestant (w/ Norman Geisler)
7:52 Claiming Athanasius was a PSA Protestant (w/ James White)
9:28 Reconciling James White's conflicting statements
16:56 Athanasius on the need for a public death
18:04 Athanasius, why Jesus died a public & shameful death
21:04 Athanasius, Jesus died to destroy the power of the devil
23:05 Athanasius, Christ as an icon of human unity
23:59 Athanasius, Christ as an icon of indivisibility
24:37 A review of Athanasius' view of the Crucifixion
26:33 Wayne Grudem, why the crucifixion?
30:04 R.C. Sproul, Christ was the quintessential obscenity
34:31 Jesus became sin
36:10 Wayne Grudem, why the crucifixion? Pt 2
39:36 Mark 15:25 on the crucifixion
40:06 R.C. Sproul JR, "that's all we need to know"
40:31 Wayne Grudem on the shame & debasement of Jesus
42:52 Wayne Grudem on the necessity of pain
44:02 Alex Metherell on the suffering of Christ
52:28 RC Sproul God inflicted torment on the Son
54:06 Wayne Grudem Jesus suffered God's wrath
55:53 RC Sproul Jesus was a concentration of evil
1:01:10 Mike Winger misrepresentation of PSA
1:02:52 RC Sproul: God to Jesus "God damn you!"

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💡 About:
Idol Killer is committed to spreading the Gospel and making disciples of Christ. We are dedicated to promoting classic orthodox Christian doctrine (pre-Augustinian) and in doing so exposing extra-Biblical corrupt philosophies and presuppositions.

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FAIR USE NOTICE

[IdolKiller]

This is part of a complete 15 episode response series. Watch the whole thing here:

[swordmasterpublications]

Didn't realize I could despise Calvinism any more than I do. Fail.

[LedHead]

Holy cow, Warren. Thank you for these, brother. All at once? What a gift. I'll be gobbling these up.

[TimothyChapman]

The passage is mistranslated. He didn't "become sin", he became the sin OFFERING.

[marincusman]

I love Mike. This series is very difficult to listen to on many levels. I have never questioned PSA until yesterday when I found this series. Hearing RC Sproul say things like that is jarring to say the least. The points you have made seem very consistent. I’m anxious to hear more and to learn how this plays into animal sacrifice and blood for the remission of sins and other points like that. I have been teaching a young men’s Bible study in Hebrews for the past few months and a lot of it is centered on the covenants, sacrifices, and the blood, so naturally, a lot was spoken of PSA. I am very grieved to hear the claims of PSA articulated to its full conclusion and realizing how blasphemous it sounds. Thank you for what you are doing. I am going to wrestle through the rest of this series, but am already finding the foundation of PSA to be cracking underneath me. I want to know how this affects the idea of Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us, given that our sin being imputed to him is untenable. Hoping to have questions like this answered as I continue. Thank you again, and keep it up.

[mariebo]

In regard to the whole curse thing, what about Galatians 3:13? I’m trying to track here, but I keep coming across passages that looks like PSA or say the opposite of what he says. Maybe they come up in upcoming videos. I’m watching the playlist. I definitely see some of what he is talking about for sure so far.

[yvonnedoulos]

3/15. Just wow! I feel validated that I stopped listening to Sproul so many years ago.

Grateful for you comparing certain teachings to actual Scripture, i.e. 2 Corinthians 5:21 & Ps. 22. That is powerful!

[jeromemausling]

Anybody think that Paul Vandredi looks like Ray Liotta about to do some damage on PSA?

[joshualeibrant]

I absolutely love how you point out that Sproul did not have the Holy Spirit by quoting 1Cor 12:1-3. Excellent work.

[EstelleWalter]

25:00 The citations of Anathasius are very insightful and brilliant.
32:00 Waw. I never linked that verse to the cross! John 5.19b For whatever things that One is doing, these things the Son is also likewise doing. I can truly say that the doctrine of PSA has DESTROYED my view of the Father. And I thank God that people like you are setting things straight so that the Holy Spirit can rebuild my view of the Father in truth.

[LedHead]

When I see the cross I think of victory. Victory over death. A way for me to be with the Father for eternity. Victory over the clutches of Satan as well. Not only did Jesus pick a fight with Satan in the air, at the cross, but also at the "gates of hell" in Caeseria Philippi. Mike Heiser did excellent work uncovering this in "Reversing Hermon."

[caleschnell]

PSA sees the cross as the very symbol of death; those who have eyes to see it as the very symbol of life destroying death in its totality.

2 Timothy 1:10 - Christ destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light."

[bryanlovesjesus]

I love the Christus Victor/Ransom/recapitulation view of the atonement. Makes Christ work so much more beautiful, while PSA makes everything so simple and disregards so much of the work on the cross and after the cross. Psa doesn’t paint God in a nice way (speaking as a man).

I’ve been slowly learning more about this Atonement view since November-December of last year and I now reject PSA completely. Thanks for making these videos responding to Mike as I know if I share my views with others and say I reject PSA they’ll look on YouTube and find mikes video and think that validates PSA, so I can respond by sharing these videos. Thanks brothers!

[JonathanGrandt]

I think The Passion of the Christ is more Roman Catholic anyway.. Gibson is Catholic and the film gets inspiration from Catholic tradition.

39:33

I think Mark saying “they crucified Him” says what it needs to because the horrors of crucifixion are already understood by the audience. By saying “crucified” all of the brutality is already implied by a single word.

I get his overall point, but Mark isn’t the only one who speaks of the death of Christ. Mark only says so much, yet scripture says more.

The movie tried to show the brutality of the Romans, did it go too far? Perhaps such a thing doesn’t need to be made into a film, but He was handed over to godless men.

When I saw it at age 24 I didn’t get the idea that it was torture porn or that it was trying to depict PSA or God punishing Jesus. Simply that the wrath and wickedness of men was laid on Him. His own people handed Him over to this.

What Paul is basically saying here is, “this is how Mark describes the brutality of Roman torture execution…. And it was the third hour and the Romans tortured and nailed Him to a post to slowly die an agonizing death.”

I mean, that’s what crucifixion is.

[timrockholt]

Kevin Thompson from Beyond the Fundamentals had mad a comment about having you on his show to discuss the atonement, I think that would be very fruitful would love to hear your thoughts on the scapegoat idea.

[Ashwin]

After Jesus' crucification, the centurion who was guarding Him, said this man certainly was the Son of God!
Over the last two millennia again and again as people were confronted by the crucification, people have confessed that Jesus is Lord. There is something deeply convicting about Jesus death on the cross that convinced us of His divinity.. Athanasius was spot on.

[Solideogloria]

All those things that preacher said in min 34:30 about Jesus are horrible, some heretical for sure “Jesus became a Satan worshipper”? That sounds like blasphemy to me.

[mjsabie]

This was one of the most disturbing videos I’ve ever watched. It hurt my soul to hear people talk about Jesus like that

[jsam]

Church history is at the very least interesting, but im honestly not a fan of all these labels and confusion, I feel like these things are what deter people from becoming Christians in the first place. I don't put a label on myself, I just read the Bible and know I'm saved because the messiah died to pay my sin debt to God and rose again.

[michaelcarpenter]

The irony of PSA has sins put on Christ but this would make him unfit to be a sacrifice