Final Authority & the Church (Audio) | Protestantism vs Roman Catholicism Pt.1 | Debate

This debate took place in 2019 and was hosted by Cy Kellet, host of the Catholic Answers Live radio program.

[jarrahe]

Mr. Akin swept and mopped up this debate. Good job to both

[mattnelms]

Grea discussion. Thank you gentlemen for listening so well. And being clear, knowledgeable, succinct & articulate.

I expected to hear the fact that in Paul's first letter to Timothy, he QUOTES SCRIPTURE from the Torah and from Luke's gospel. And seemed to be used to add significant credibility to his argument by quoting written down Scripture in the 1st Century. In fact, it looks like almost all the Apostles did this in their recorded texts. All in the 1st Century. Traditionalists almost always try to drag the written record deeper into 2nd Century and beyond. Not sure why.

[francescoaccomando]

@30:00 the argument is self defeating. Yes Paul had to wrote another letter to correct them, but that is exactly what an elder/bishop does.
The argument was they had the deposit of faith and departed, but also you can argue they had scriptures and departed, same as any hundreds of denominations have scriptures and departed. But then Paul correct them. That is the magisterium. We train each other in faith, some get elected to a role of authority, but the correction comes from the WHOLE body of the church. One or two may depart, but the rest of the church can correct them.

Matthew 18:15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again[a] I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

[stratoblues]

Nice to hear a civil discussion between two intelligent men. I've not heard Mr Gregg before but Jimmy is always civil in his discussion with others.

[gainsofglory]

My question for Steve would be, that if you think people can so quickly divert from what they are taught and most commonly do divert, why would Christ then make his authoritative teachers expire within 1 generation?

It seems apostolic succession is a common sense answer to that problem. Otherwise after the last apostle dies, all of humanity is then just set to deviate from what was taught. Scripture wouldn't fo anything to keep us on track, the vast majority of all people for many centuries would be illiterate. And if there was no authority left, even people knowledgeable in the apostolic teaching trying to correct these deviations are just men with opinions, not authoritative.

It just seems to me to be so contrary to what we know about God to work that way. He says he will be with his church always, until the end of the age. To both hold that people deviate so easily and so quickly while also denying apostolic succession does not seem to me like Christ being with his church always until the end of the age. It sounds more like Christ said "good luck, I'll see some of you at the end, sort this mess out yourselves."

I do greatly appreciate how Steve's views are for more developed and nuanced than we get with typical protestant debates on the topic. Much less talking past eachother and more talking deeply on the subject matter.

[eduardobauche]

(1Pe, 1, 24-25) THE CHURCH NEVER LOST THE DEPOSIT

24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[c]

And this is the word that was preached to you.

[brianingram]

Sola Scriptura is a myth. All protestant denominations have differing interpretations of scripture based on their traditional understanding of it. They have that tradition based on their founders' interpretation, be it Baptised, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc. Each denomination has a magisterium, be it a single paster or a group such as the southern Baptist conference, who determines doctrine and dogma.
The all ape Catholicism while claiming otherwise. Its time Catholic Apologists call them out on this.

[eduardobauche]

(2 Timothy, 1 13-14) INFALIBLE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

12For this reason I also suffer these things. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard my deposit entrusted for that day.

13Retain the pattern of sound words, which you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14Keep the good deposit entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit, the One dwelling in us.

[eduardobauche]

(2 Jhon 1-2) PERPETUAL POSESION THRUTH

Deposit despite the presure of corruption will be in the Church forvever

1 The elder,

To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth— 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

[eduardobauche]

(Mt 23, 1 ss) shows BINDING AND LOOSING ARE INHERITED INDEFINITELY THROUGH GENERATIONS, consult the jewish encyclopedia Binding and loosing wich also says this authority resided in the Sanhedrin or body of teachers of EVERY AGE: Just as Moses had great authority and the subsequent teachers had a lesser authority to maintain the covenant functuinal and explicate it, in the same way the Apostles had great authority and the successors who participated of the same authority to keep the new covenant functional and explicate it. Here the text.

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.