The DANGEROUS DURANGO (Random Stall, No-Start?)

Oh this is one weird and FRUSTRATING car.

Customer towed his 2012 Dodge Durango V6 from North Carolina, 10 hours away!!
He says that in the last few months the Durango has become DANGEROUS to drive.
It will STALL unpredictably at intersections, and will NOT RESTART for up to an hour!!
And it doesn't set any codes??

Parts cannon has been fired: TIPM, fuel pump, PCM...you name it!

Step 1: recreate customer complaint.
But after HOURS of driving, the Durango refuses to act up!!
How am I supposed to diagnose this thing?

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Enjoy!
Ivan

[happy]

Removing the k&n garbage is the best advice.

[donjackjohn]

I owned a brand new 2004 Cadillac SRX and installed a "K&N" air filter in it. For years I kept taking it back to the dealer because it would randomly loose power during acceleration, etc. After several dealers and several appointments they had the GM master tech come out from HQ to diagnose. Turns out the oil from the air filter coated the sensors in the throttle body resulting in poor performance. Sometimes the car is just good BONE STOCK. You don't need these aftermarket components that promise 0.5% more horsepower.

[richardspees]

Had a friend that her job required very dependable transportation that had a 2012 Durango (lease) and she had this issue of stalling starting 3 weeks after she purchased. It was back to the dealer several times, and she had to get a lawyer involved in order to get Chrysler to buy the vehicle back. She got a Toyota 4 Runner and had no issues and has been leasing those since then.

[philjerome]

Years ago, a very good tech told me to do a throttle body cleaning whenever dealing with an idle or stalling issue. That advice has served me very well over the years.

[maxhenry]

Way back i bought a k&n filter for my 98’ sierra. I decided to clean it one day. After cleaning i grabbed the oil and started that process and i got to thinking, “hmm, is there enough oil on it? Is there too much? I wasn’t sure. To little oil and it won’t filter properly. Too much oil and it could gum up the maf and throttle body. I threw it away and installed a re-usable but non oiled filter and never had a problem. The only filter that should get oiled is a foam filter for a dirt bike or atv, imo.

[carlfitzpatrick]

Quick personal experience. Jeep 2014 2.0L with a very lazy P0171. Vehicle finally went limp mode, torn down, found the following: PCV Valve failed (open pinion), flooded the intake with oil, Throttle Body TPS sensors destroyed by "snapping" closed throttle when entering limp mode, oil soaked MAP sensor, destroyed, intake gasket and manifold (plastic) shrank and was not properly torqued to head, so there was a lot of problems. The intake gasket was so loose that it was allowing air to transfer between cylinders (at times), but not setting codes. Everything is fine since repaired and replaced parts. Throttle Body, MAP, PCV, Gasket, Torqued and sealed, etc. Thanks Ivan for all the hard work, you do a great job, lots of people watch you and are amazed, so am I!

[c]

I was a little surprised that after the initial scan that you seemed to ignore the codes related to the throttle position. After your conversation with the customer and then the engine stalling when you were parking, that was the "ah ha" moment. One of the facts that I've always tried to decide with the help of the owner, is does it "stall" or "shutoff"?, the difference being throttle position. Good job on the diagnosis and repair. Great that you stuck with it.
As an aside, I've always been surprised by the fact that the OEM never saw fit to have their electronic systems monitor fuel pump signals. How hard would it be to have a code for loss of fuel pressure and loss of fuel pump current?

[fieldsofomagh]

For any idle complaint, the first low tech solution must be a clean throttle body. The danger these times is to start "Hi Tech" and work way down to "Lo Tech" A building construction always begins at base level and so should diagnosis. Nobody had the common sense, previously to do the normal checks and balances. Congrats on a successful outcome and not excluding the basics.

[lvsqcsl]

This reminds me of my cousins 1975 Ford Granada with the 4.1 liter in-line 6. The thing would just stall; you might be in a turn and need to quickly shift to neutral and operate the starter to maintain power steering to complete the turn. HIs wife wasn't impressed. We checked everything we could think of: fuel pressure, electronic ignition, etc. Finally my dad said to remove the carburetor, so I did. He disassembled the ol' Carter YF carburetor and he took out the needle-and-seat and licked it, literally. We put the thing back in and reassembled the carburetor and that car never died again. We got lucky just like you did. GREAT VIDEO!

[pqjiktl]

I love these videos where you go through the thought process of troubleshooting.
Been in electronic service over 40 years.
Diagnosing intermittent problems was the most challenging but also the most rewarding repairs.

[MarzNet]

Excellent diagnosis. Here's my thinking: The engine is closest to stalling when at idle, and that there is some threshold that must be crossed for a stall to occur. The relationship between the throttle position and amount of air flowing is non-linear, so a small percentage change in TP can produce a larger percentage change in air volume. The system is therefore able to cross the threshold into stalling because the TP cannot compensate properly (due to dirt in TB in this case) to prevent stall when you take your foot of gas at low rpm with some load. Also, I wonder if a non/poorly serviced oiled K&N filter might exacerbate the problem by reducing air-flow.

[clintprice]

Further proof that k&n is not worth it and has negative effects that you pay for when buying it. I change my air filter once to twice a year and don’t have to deal with cleaning and oiling it. The only winner with k&n is K&N.
Nice job Ivan! The scenery in this video surrounding your house is amazing.

[erwinallen]

I had a random stall in a car once. Everything was good most of the time, fuel pressure would drop to zero when it didn't. Every time I was checking it out all was good. So replaced fuel pump twice checked wiring nothing seemed to work.finally took a very close look at the fuse which checked good before. It had a hairline crack which when heated would separate and shut off the fuel pump but then would cool and turn it back on. Replaced it and all was well.

[Hernandez]

That code “p2111 electronic throttle control unable to close” was key. Nice Diagnosis 👍

[farmermiyagi]

Putting a micro-relay on the TIPM was one of the worst ideas ever. That's too much current for a micro-relay. I have bypassed several of them myself.

[markg]

I work for a large fleet and we had the same issue with other models with the same design, but something we found is the pins on the fuel pump connector back from their usual place making false contact and cause the same issues than the relay, changing the pigtail with the pump and the relay mod is usually the final solution. Is a Chrysler, can’t expect perfection.

[MrKingdavis]

I had a similar issue with a Jeep Liberty or Patriot where the intake air temperature sensor was getting a bad ground which caused it to say the air was like 450 degrees F and shut the engine down after a few minutes of run time. Someone had moved a ground wire and actually bolted it to the plastic intake so it had no ground at all. The sensor had to be replaced after relocating the ground to the firewall but ran fine afterwards which made the customer very happy since it was to several garages before I worked on it. Sometimes the smallest issues are the hardest to figure out.

[NVRAMboi]

Thanks Ivan. Aftermarket parts sure seem like a good idea...until they don't.

[charlesjaeger]

In 2019 my daughter's 2010 mazda 3 was doing almost the same thing when coming to a stop. No aftermarket air filter. Stock air flow. Went on line and everyone said to check the throttle body for cleanliness. It was very dirty. Cleaned and ran perfect after that after it re-learned the TPS position. Only took about a mile to re-learn. Thanks internet and youtube.

[robertlacob]

The first thing I notice when opening the hood is any after-market parts! The K&N air filters are known to provide oil on the throttle bodies by their design. And you know that the system must be kept clean and dry! I 've had a few MAF sensors covered with oil and a few TB filthy from high mileage. Not changing an overdue air filter only forces more dirt into the TB causing idle and stalling.