Robert Sapolsky: The Illusion of Free Will

A message from Lawrence:

I have been a fan of Robert Sapolsky’s for a long time. He is a creative force, with wide ranging knowledge, from primatology to neuroscience, and he is also a wonderful expositor of science. His previous book, Behave, was a wide ranging exploration of human behavior, at its best and worst. I have been wanting to do a podcast with him for some time, and the launch of his new book, Determined, gave us the opportunity. I got an advanced copy and we recorded this a few weeks ago, so that this podcast could post on the book’s publication date.

Had it been anyone else, I admit I wouldn’t have bothered to go through the book. I have long felt the issue of free will is overplayed. The laws of physics are deterministic, and since biology and chemistry are based on physics, I have never doubted that free will is an illusion, but have also felt that for all intents and purposes the world we live in is indistinguishable from a world with free will, so we should take responsibility for our actions.

As is often the case when reading Robert’s works, my view has now become more nuanced. His book masterfully discusses the neurobiology behind the illusion of free will, what actually interests me the most, and he effectively demolished claims of numerous philosophers, including Dan Dennett and others, that some magic occurs between the level of neurons and the level of the full brain that allows for some uncaused behavior.

Along the way, we are taken on a masterful and fun ride through modern neurobiology. And at the end, Sapolsky confronts the more serious question of crime and punishment in a world where free will is an illusion, and convincingly argues that in a world where bad luck early on gets multiplied throughout ones life, society can far more effectively and honestly deal with crime by abolishing the notion of punishment, replacing it with behaviorally more effective methods.

In our podcast, as we always do, we discussed Sapolsky’s origins. What got him interested in science. How did his 30 years working with primates impact on his view of humans, and more. I found it a fascinating discussion, and I hope you will too.

Full Episodes Playlist:

[naftalibendavid]

Had lunch with him at USC almost two decades ago. Courteous. Generous. Kind. Listened to my blowhard colleagues with care. Treated our server graciously. Rarely talked about himself. Answered questions with candor and asked questions of those of us who lacked his fame and intellect. Wish more people were like him.

[SuperBlinding]

Nice of Robert Sapolsky to drop in to listen to Lawrence (wink)

[Ryan-onon]

Lawrence,
I am thrilled to see Professor Sapolsky as a guest on your podcast. Like so many, I first became aware of Sapolsky through his excellent online Stanford lecture series on Psychobiology. At first watch, I was hopelessly hooked by his astoundingly wide breadth of knowledge, charming wit, inspiring humility, and clear way of communicating quite difficult concepts. These lectures made me better aware of the biological underpinnings of all human behavior and how environment and neurobiology interact to influence one's psychological profile. Further, they made me more understanding, less judgmental, and even slightly empathetic of those highly damaged persons who have caused me some harm in life. For this, I owe the great Professor an immeasurable deal of gratitude. 

Glad you had the opportunity to talk for so long with one of the greatest and most fascinating intellects of our time! A conversation such as this could've gone on for two hours more, and I would've been glued to the screen for its entirety all the same

Regards,
Ryan

[fritsgerms]

Thank you for getting prof Sapolsky. Ive consumed many of his books. His time in Africa is legendary.

[jetucker]

Fascinating! I’m grateful that my lack of free will is preventing me from logging off and making dinner.

[alberthjaltason]

I had an epiphany a while back that free will doesn't exist. It changed a lot for me. Years of guilt and angst and regret was washed away, and I feel much better. Helped with depression and anxiety in a very real way. Seems to me that religions tout the idea of free will to make one responsible for their array of sins and the like. I haven't believed in any religious idea since I reached the age of reason at 8, but the idea of free will stuck around until lately. It's just such a ingrained thing that we take for granted. No more!!

[piotrszarek]

The smell of books read when I was a kid...somtimes I talk about that to my grandchildren.
Unforgetable.
Great pleasure to listen to discussion.
Thank you very much.

[josefk]

I like Schopenhauer’s dismissal of free will “We do what we want but we do not will what we want”.

[daniellegardner]

I love his mention of going to the Natural History Museum as a child and loving it! It really hit home. When I was a child, my father and I would often visit the Penn Museum of Archeology and Anthropology. It was my favorite museum and I loved hanging out with my dad. It's truly remarkable how the little moments in our lives can have such a profound impact. I am now a biological anthropologist! 😉 Robert Sapolski is brilliant and so plugged into the human condition. Been following his work for years now. Fantastic interview!

[xmathmanx]

Great conversation, what made me subscribe was hearing Lawrence say he went vegetarian having understood the argument for it, making that vital link between knowledge and behaviour that most people ignore

[JAYMOAP]

Robert Sapolsky is another level. Great choice of guest

[itslightanddark]

This is one of the kindest and most beautiful conversations I've ever seen. Thanks Lawrence for demonstrating such a way of being and showing Robert so well. Peace and strength to us all.

[Nettamorphosis]

I love a conversation that cracks my mind open. This is one. On top of all you said about why we should be honest about free will: The truth is too lovely to hold back. 🙂

[OOTW]

What a profound conversation. This resonated with me at so many levels. I truly believe, knowing objectively how the world works is the only way to get rid of biases that have been bogging us down for so long. The best thing we can do is We can only change ourselves.

[TheRosakennedy]

Thank you both!!.They said Teachers have three loves:love of learning, love of learners, and the love of bringing the first two loves together". Much love and gratitud professor Sapolsky.

[peppepre]

I’ve followed both of the two of you and watched most of prof. Sapolsky and prof. Strauss lectures on line. I can truly say that I love you both!!!
Thanks for all you’ve contributed and done!!!

[amaiwright]

What a privilege to be allowed to enjoy this conversation between the both of you 💗 thank you!!

[animmigrant]

I wish I could hear Sapolsky talk more than Krauss. 😊

[riverlevity]

This was the best interview with Robert Sapolsky I have listened to and I listen to all of them I can find. Thank you Lawrence for providing us with your own well thought out questions, support and intellect which provided me with a better understanding of Roberts' beautiful book, 'Determined'.

[stephanodermatt]

Just ordered the book. FWIW, Behave is my most favorite biology book of all times. I do own two hardcopys - one to give friends to read and my very own, with lots of marks and comments in it. Whenever I reread it, there is new stuff to be discovered. So I am looking so much forward to reading Sapolsky's newest work!