Of Baboons and Men | Robert Sapolsky | EP 390

Dr. Jordan B Peterson sits down with Neuroendocrinology researcher and author of the upcoming book Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will, Robert Sapolsky. They discuss how Game Theory applies to human behavior across iterative rounds of play, the unexpected success of the tit-for-tat principle, the role of dopamine in the anticipation of the future, and the objective reality of transcendent structures within our biological routines.

Robert Sapolsky is an American Neuroendocrinology researcher, author, and communicator. He has spent decades studying primates in the wild, written numerous articles and books, as well as produced multiple video series on the subject. By the age of 12, Sapolsky was writing to well known primatologists as a fan, and had also begun teaching himself Swahili with the early ambition of heading to Tanzanian, Mozambique, and Kenya in search of his own primates (Specifically Silverback Gorillas) to study. Not too much later, Sapolsky would make contact with a group of gorillas in Kenya, a group he would visit every year for 25 years, spending 4 months studying them at a time. Sapolsky would go on to become the John A. and Cynthia Fry Gunn Professor at Stanford University, holding joint appointments in several departments, including Biological Sciences, Neurology & Neurological Sciences, and Neurosurgery.

Ep.390

- Sponsors -

- Links -

For Robert Sapolsky:

- Chapters -

(0:00) Coming up
(1:08) Intro
(2:05) Game Theory, the logic of our behavior
(6:13) The shadow of the future
(10:31) You are a community across time, Utilitarian thinking
(15:25) Tit-for-tat, iterative game competitions
(18:00) The Prisoner’s Dilemma
(23:11) Tit-for-tat in bats
(24:24) Signal errors, virtualization
(28:57) Radical forgiveness
(31:20) Shared culture, demonizing the foreign
(33:04) Faith in the possibility of humanity
(36:03) Founder populations
(37:41) Abraham, the underlying ethos
(41:20) Religion and retention
(44:08) Cain and Abel, sacrifice, maturity, and dopamine
(47:30) The extension of knowledge into the future
(50:08) The dopaminergic system, future rewards
(53:00) Agency, quasi-predictability, the power of “maybe”
(56:30) The ultimately addictive slot machine
(57:50) Pattern of the hero
(1:01:50) You’re a winner if people want to play with you
(1:03:39) Freedom of association
(1:05:41) The meaning of “store up your treasure in heaven”
(1:08:56) Punishing generosity
(1:12:48) Playing at the edge of additional generosity
(1:14:20) Baboons, anticipation, the range of pleasures
(1:16:21) Refining taste, the tragic implication
(1:18:40) Dostoevsky, "Notes From the Underground"
(1:20:54) You are not built for satiation
(1:23:32) False adventures, pathology and addiction
(1:26:11) What God lacks
(1:28:00) Studying primates for 30 years
(1:31:13) The result of an abundance of females
(1:37:03) Third party enforcers, cultural transmission

// LINKS //

// COURSES //

// BOOKS //

#JordanPeterson #JordanBPeterson #DrJordanPeterson #DrJordanBPeterson #DailyWirePlus

[acerpalmatum]

YouTube is amazing. I'm a middle aged woman in a middle class town, folding laundry and cooking dinner while listening to this amazing conversation. I love learning like this.

[oliverortiz]

More than 15 years ago I declared myself a Sapolsky fan when I saw him for the first time in a documentary. I am a lawyer, but I have never stopped reading about science, from astronomy to biology. Robert's latest book "Behave" is the best science book I have ever read, by far. It is a privilege for someone like me, from the south of the world (Chile), from a small town, to be able to access some of Robert's classes at Stanford that were published on YouTube a few years ago. Thank you Robert Sapolsky for your work and thank you J.P for inviting him and helping spread the knowledge. Long live Youtube ;)

[Molloy]

I love to hear Dr Peterson talking about evolution, psychology, and human behaviour rather than politics and politicians.

[arturolopezdenava]

I am a doctor from Mexico. Couldn’t imagine a few years ago that these two would talk. Amazing. Refreshing to see someone as passionate as Dr. Sapolsky in the spotlight. Looking forward to that new book!

[susangravdahlparsons]

Robert is so patient - the "conversation" goes all over the place via Peterson. I eagerly await Robert's response in all of these interviews. He stays right on the topic Peterson drives to and responds with relevant content. That's the sign of a remarkably kind and intelligent person.

[robinpage]

Jordan Peterson needs to do more of these convos with actual scientists instead of politics. This was an objectively good conversation.

[momscience]

It's actually emotional for me to see these two minds come together. I have two of Sapolsky's books and I love his way of speaking. I have wanted to see them do an interview for so long.

[tonyoconnor]

I've been waiting eight years for this conversation, even suggested it in an email to JP. Sapolsky's Human Behavioral Biology is epic. I hope these two have a couple of conversations. Another individual I hope JP speaks with is Gabor Mate. THANK YOU!

[mpelgudmir]

Love this conversation, and it went a lot better than I thought it might. I think Jordan is at his best when he's not dealing with politics or being attacked for the religious aspects of his work. He seemed genuinely interested and invested in this conversation, and when that happens, I think his guests are pleasantly surprised. Dr. Sapolsky is amazing, and if you haven't read his stuff, you should definitely check it out. Really funny and really insightful.

[SapienSafari]

Given how loquacious these two are, I’m very grateful that they were able to give each other space to equally express their ideas. Excellent convo.

[hv]

I've been waiting for this for about 2 years now since Robert appeared on Andrew Huberman's podcast regarding the topic of Freewill. Been following Dr.Sapolsky and Dr.Peterson's work for years now, it's so great to to see these two together! Thank you for all the important research you two have been contributing

[alaindenis]

In terms of verbal IQ, interesting research, and intellectualism, smartest guest on your podcast thus far. I've been listening to Robert over 10 years now, they guy is a power house

[name._..-.]

I like interviews much more when they are not about politics...
So captivating and interesting conversation, thank you!

[thevanted]

1:00:29 Peterson is learning, he used to interrupt during interviews, this is an example where he caught himself doing it. Hell yeah, loving it. Good job

[orionmyth]

It's a real stress reliever watching two human beings of such intellect being in happy agreement on these deep topics

[christopherkopperman]

Jordan just explained my 60/60 rule of relationships. Put 60% into your relationship (more then you expect to get out) and when you meet someone else willing to do the same thing foster those relationships because the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts. Been one of my values for as long as I can remember.

[klkay]

Robert Sapolsky is such a great teacher. I've watched many of his lectures.

[allyourbase]

This may be one of the most important conversations on CensorTube or the internet for that matter. Thank you both for you work and coming together to unravel and reveal these great mysteries. 🙏🏾🇺🇸❤️

Gandalf the White and Radagast the Brown should have a monthly podcast. Thank you! ❤

[daviddokka]

Hey, I never comment here, but this was amongst the best podcasts I've ever heard. Jordan and Robert are playing a symphony of thoughts together.

[goodtalker]

Sapolsky has a lecture on how stress can produce long-term depression on humans. It's one of the best I have ever seen.