What is the Python Job Delusion?

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[Ultrajamz]

A lot of companies are trying to pull back the remote work and we need to resist it. Frankly I work harder remote knowing I don’t have to dress up and drive. I work overtime and off hours remote as I want! If I had to wake up earlier and drive, I would clock in at 9 and clock out at 5 hard stop.

[ConnoisseurOfExistence]

Good video. I was one of those who fell into exactly that delusion. I was thinking that I'll be able to get data science or AI job without a degree, just with Python. I've learnt Python on my own, I solved lots of challenges, I did projects and so on... Applied for jobs and didn't get any. However, I'm not the one that just want to get into coding for the good salaries or something, I actually want to do AI. I've just started a degree course in data science and neuroscience (aged 38).

[Realrebitsch]

The way i got start as a python developer was as a test developer. I found that it is pretty much the only kind of job that is in relatively high demand, and where they will consider you if you are a beginner. I agree with Stef, it is not the obvious choice for a first language. Now i have a core python developer job, but what got me hired other than the QA background (which is very valuable) is my unfinished chemistry degree. Most of my coworkers have either a STEM background, or are trained developers who transitioned to python from C++. Companies will usually have you pick up python on the fly as someone with experience in an other language. If you only know python, you will need either previous work experience, or something else going for you.

[GenerallyGoodMusic]

I'm a data engineer, and I got the job only having studied Python and SQL in my freetime...no bachelor degree, data science training, or previous IT job.

That being said, I'm clearly an outlier, and that this video speaks the truth. When I chose to learn Python, I didn't know I'd probably land in data, otherwise I would have spent my time learning something else. Plus, I ended up having to use SQL 10x more than Python.

[BlackCondor]

Yea there are Python software engineering jobs out there but like you said regarding Java, those kind of jobs are hard to get without a computer science degree. I feel the web stack is the best route to take to get a dev job without having to go back and get a degree. Python is used a lot in higher up IT jobs like cloud, networking engineering. security, etc but those usually aren't entry level jobs either.

[johnmcway]

I watched the same video from you before I got hired for my first backend position 2 years ago and got very very discouraged.
I got hired as a python Django dev.

Please don't let this man discourage you.

[theBurningTreeComedy]

This video is a great piece of wisdom - though I do want to share something that I experienced as an electrical engineer. Of course a high-level language like python isn't going to have a ton of great applications where things like optimization and speed matter. My job wasn't coding specific but at my company, but I was one of very few who knew how to write scripts in python efficiently to help with test result analysis (this also came with knowledge of digital signal processing, experience with different libraries from university, etc - all things specific to a background in science as the video suggests). Even so, I think learning in use it effectively can really make you a more effective (and valuable) employee. I always encourage people to learn it as an ancillary skill for the sake of career advancement. As others have said, its also fairly intuitive and not terrible to learn on the fly with other coding experience.

[LoneLeagle]

1 thing I'm learning as I'm learning to code is the 1st language doesn't matter because they're all pretty much the same with slightly different syntax. I'd tell a noob to learn the language with the best beginner-friendly courses because they can learn another language within days.

[eeemuse]

But also what's crucial in web stack development specially if you'll work on your own is having good sales and communication skills, after you reach some point of learning coding you'll have to heavily invest in making good contacts, without them nobody will ask for your skills no matter how good you are.

[tea_otomo]

Yes you are right. People always talk about Django and Flask, but in general these jobs are the minority of python jobs out there. Most companies take other language for APIs. The last python jobs I saw are heavily focused on the Automotive industry.

[Micha-pfpl]

I've felt into this trap, learned a bit of python/django - wanted to do webdevelopment - however, I've started to see that here in Poland most webdev jobs are rather in JS than python - > I've already started learning JS and it is way easier when u already know the basics of some sort of language... it's all good though because journey continues !!! : )

[DefinitelyNotAMachineCultist]

Unless you have a very specific plan to break into a specialty (more power to you), the “safe” bet for a full-stack programmer's languages (assuming _that they have no preference already_ and want to maximize the potential pool of jobs that require them to deal with that language), seems to be something like this:

1) + popular frameworks (React/Next/RNative, Tailwind, etc.) — You'll never escape this on the frontend. We'll probably die before this language does. WebAssembly won't save you now. If you've done some frontend stuff, getting into a backend role with Node.js isn't that hard if your fundamentals are good enough for an interview.

2) Java + popular frameworks (Spring Boot, Lombok, <insert ORM here>, etc.) — C++, Java & Python are common in coding problem sites and interviews. Lots of solutions written in these.
Java seems to have the most (dare I say best?) reference material for DSA stuff (e.g. check out _Data Structures and Algorithms in Java_ by Robert Lafore), and as this channel points out, is most likely more practical than either C++ or Python for your day job.
Also, a lot of interview-related challenge sites (including, as of the time of writing, Google's Foobar challenge) offered Python & Java but not C++ last I checked.
Though most of the big ones offer a ton of languages these days.
JavaScript is a bit weird to use for DSA/LeetCode/Codeforces-type stuff (lack of a standard library comparable to Java or Python is one reason).
Python & Java are the most common choices besides C++ from the looks of it.
Might as well use the thing you'll likely use at work.

As for libraries, some stuff like Apache's MyBatis don't get talked about much, but seem inescapable in some regions, while stuff like Hibernate seem to be a favorite of hiring managers in others.

Also, although tech stacks & ecosystems differ a lot, most people expect an experienced Java guy to be able to easily handle C# and vice versa.

JavaScript/TypeScript, Java & C# are all cancerously popular globally, both in megacorps and startups. I know they might be an eyesore/RSI trigger/headache for the Lispers and Greybeards among us, but you're not really going to find safer choices these days. Maybe toss in some PHP if you want (seriously, it _does_ still have jobs).

3) SQL + nitty-gritty knowledge of a specific database (PostgreSQL/CockroachDB, etc.) — Learn to do something useful with this. Pretty rare to see SQL hobby projects. May help you stand out. Look into Redis cache setups, etc. Maybe look into some unusual stuff like non-blocking R2DBC drivers if you're bored to stand out. NoSQL seems less likely to be requested as a specific skill, even though it's used a lot. Maybe it's safer to assume a regular/non-specialist dev can handle NoSQL compared to SQL?

Plus maybe some general Linux (RHEL is free now), Bash and config knowledge for Docker. Stay away from K8s/K3s unless you're going into DevOps.

Probably not going to need too much domain expertise when going this route.

[rachellejanssen]

The issue that I have with this is that lots of python developers are "build first, worry about it later". I haven't seen an awful lot of python code that I feel comfortable with in my 7 year career so far. In typescript I at least have a baseline of code quality that I can work with, but with python developers I already get hostility towards documenting, structuring and "strict typing" code because they'd rather have it working once and then never touch it again.

[okbutexplainthis]

Very true. On the bright side, you can leverage raw python skills to get you foot in the door for many “non-technical” jobs. Using it to automate reports gives you a huge leg up on everyone else.

[zackplauche]

I think Python is great for learning basic programming concepts, from functional to OOP. JS is far uglier in my opinion, but for me it was a bit more useful to learn async stuff and probably web devleopment overall. Also most APIs have JavaScript examples, whereas with Python, there are packages that are just wrappers for those APIs. Not always the case, but it can be quite often.

However, I would also argue that on some level Django definitely makes Python worth it outside of the Data Science area. I've actually had quite a bit of clients wanting Django projects.

Also, if you can learn Python, you can learn the data science packages relatively easy. You just might not know the fancy data science terminology 😂. I helped someone with Robotics understand how to implement what they were looking for and I know next to nothing about robotics.

Anyways, with Python:
1. Learn basics / fundamentals (as stef says) and you can learn anything.
2. Clean code is universal to any language.
3. Django is awesome, and Data Science is also awesome but requires more knowledge than you think.

[TheOrionMusicNetwork]

Data engineering / Software Engineer (Data) is pretty big now (and is python heavy), and it doesn't require specialisation in the same sense that data science does (i.e. there is a lot more crossover with a traditional software engineering role - many involve some amount of devops / cloud knowledge too, but that is becoming more standard these days I would think)

[aphradotlink]

Hey Stef, totally agree that the web stack is an excellent entry point into a tech career. One thing folks should keep on their radar regarding Python specializations is cybersecurity - not only for automations and microservices, but (drumroll) data science! Companies that are ahead of the curve are becoming hip to the fact that the cybersecurity industry faces some of the exact same hurdles the scientific and data processing communities have faced for years.

[elenakusevska]

I don't know, where I am, Python backend is pretty big. Also, Python comes up in scripting, automation, devops, sysadmin, cloud... It's true that to work in Data you don't even need to be a Python pro, and learning python is hardly the most difficult skill you'll have to learn.

[ZenoLee]

This is true for any programming language. Programming languages are tools to implement specific business concepts. It's just that some fields require much more specialization, like bioinformatics and artificial intelligence.

[Prinjal_Boruah]

I had a mechanical engineering degree. Learned python, Django and changed my career. Joined a company as a back-end developer. Now I work as a cloud data Engineer in another company.

Having gone through this journey, I would never suggest a fresh graduate or a person without any previous experience to learn python to get their first job. It is very hard to get a python job without any experience. People don't prefer back-end developers without experience especially if don't have a CS degree.

I would suggest to learn JavaScript, specifically React.js to get a job faster. Get into the industry, understand how programming works and then make the career transition into other fields.