What Are Demonic Doctrines Today: Are there Modern Charismatic Examples?

In last week's Kundalini episode we decided that the manifestations alone were not sufficient to condemn the charismatic movement for "entertaining false spirits". However, we ended the episode by discussing aberrant doctrines that seem to have Infiltrated the charismatic spaces. We did not have enough time to unpack that idea last week, but this week we are going hard on the paint! Are there aberrant doctrines that place charismatics at risk of being demonized, and are all incorrect doctrines equally dangerous? In this episode, we will be revisiting the physics of heaven, courts of heaven, traveling to heaven, and maybe even prosperity gospel stuff.

[keithbryner]

I wanted to send this privately. I was looking for an email address for Remnant Radio and couldn't find one. I have so much to say, but I'll try to keep this short. I have such a heart for the Charismatic and Pentecostal communities. I'm from a Pentecostal persuasion myself. I grew up AG and after many years of being a part of other expressions of the Body of Christ (Brethren in Christ, UMC, Presbyterian, have come back to the Assemblies. In fact, I'm currently exploring credentialing with the AGs. Anyway... I've been around "revival culture" since the mid 90s and have spent much of my adult life in circles that would now be labeled as NAR. When you (collectively speaking) talk about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I get it. However, as a person who has seen these type of teachings Christianity) in almost every church I've been involved in as an adult, I have to say I struggle to agree with you when I think about the effects these teaching and experiences have on believers --- especially believers young in the faith. To say that, i.e. "Bob Jones is right on prophetically, but don't give him the mic when it comes to teaching [please pardon my paraphrase], " reminds me of Gordon Lindsey and William M. Branham. When we have respected teachers giving their friends a "pass" because they know them and trust them, it's extremely harmful. I remember being in a meeting where the pastors let John Crowder "toke the Ghost" right on the platform alongside "Prophet, " Jim Goll. It was beyond terrible! I trusted the pastor and if I wasn't grounded in Christ, I would have been doing the same thing, looking for the same experience. The pastor did not shut the mess down. I wonder how many other believers (or worse yet, nonbelievers) were out there trying the same thing. "But they also teach the Gospel." I'm sorry guys, but the Jesus that is being taught is not the same Jesus of the Bible. I love Bill Johnson and all those in the movement. I think he is caught up in the old Latter Rain deception. When he says he wants the mantle of William Branham, he doesn't know what he's asking for. It's another spirit. Look at the history --- Dowey, Parham, Lake, Branham... there's something at the root of the Pentecostal/Charismatic that is off. I think our Christology is paramount to addressing our current conundrums. Our focus on Christ is the main thing I love about being a classic Pentecostal. However, when we get our focus off Jesus, we have the discernment of a cockroach. I love the gifts, but if Jesus isn't front and center... I'm outta here. Please keep the conversation going. This is so important. Thank you.

[glennhand]

I was in a church that “did some good things” like you all said about Bethel. “They do some good things”. But the false doctrine the church I was in caused great spiritual harm to me and many others. People like me that left that church needed therapy. We had no intention of leaving the faith nor leaving God. Think of Christian Science for example. They “do some good things” but leave people and families devastated. The stories of friends of mine from the church I left are similar to someone leaving, say for example the Christian Science church or Mormonism or Amish etc. you are left feeling like you are leaving faith, walking away from God, walking away from people you love. You truly feel lost even though you still love God and his teachings. It’s a horrible, deeply painful experience.

Please consider the false teachings by Bethel, on the same level and leading to this type of damage and destruction. Please don’t equate what some would consider, (by a conservative and careful use of this word) a cult. The church I left is considered by many, who study cults, a cult. A cult does some good things too. Be more cautious and let Bethel off the hook when they start revising some terrible, damaging, false doctrines. I don’t think you understand the harm it causes people when they find out years later that a doctrine they were taught is true, they find out it is demonstrably scripturally untrue. They will feel they were lied to by close friends and spiritual leaders.

They will have great difficulty listening to and trusting any biblical teacher again. They may mistrust God because they put their faith in Him and he “let them” become deceived by what they believed and accepted as truth. They put their faith in a teaching which seemed to be sound and biblical. Now trust and faith in teachers, preachers, spiritual leaders is damaged.

You are taking this false teaching by Bethel TOO LIGHTLY

[Philagape]

Since you guys are comparing Bethel to the church at Corinth, note that the church at Corinth repented when Paul corrected them (2 Cor. 7:9).
David committed terrible sins, but he repented.
I'll affirm Bethel when they repent of these things.

[BarbaraCarty-zcdn]

Blessed are those who have seen and believed. Even more blessed are those who have not seen and believe

[GrammyGottaGo]

I have really learned so much from listening to this channel. I used to be a straight cessationist, but since I have been listening to people on this podcast and to my pastor, I have come to think that the gifts may exist today, and I am looking to visit a church where I can see things for myself (I attend a small Methodist church with a variety of beliefs but the United Methodist Church is cessationist in general.)

[finkytoes]

Just want to thank you for your channel! It is so informative and gives such a deep understanding of different beliefs and it is absolutely appreciated. Thank you so much!

[stewietinktink]

How can you be a prophet and not be able to teach or let alone understand scripture?

[hagenjunger]

If you guys at remnant radio read this, got a question: this bethel thing goes round and round and never seems to stop. You say you disagree, it is plain there are serious errors there which the leadership endorses. At what point would you say "enough is enough "? Surely at some stage you have to come to the point where you discontinue to associate with them as brothers in Christ. What is that line, and how many more times do you correct and warn etc and they still don't change. This is not a case of forgiving 70 x 7 times as Jesus said. This is a case of bringing the name of Jesus into disrepute and open to mockery. Ultimately the hope is that people repent but they won't unless they are treated as unbelievers. It's like doing tough love with an adult child.

[TheTykus]

I would like a part three to this. Pretty much on the same page as you guys with everything y’all are saying about it, but was/am very unaware of teachings like these.

[arnoldhorvath]

Sometimes gentleman you just have to lay the axe to the tree. I have noticed this channels Achilles heel has always been approaching peripheral movements with kid gloves. You can come along side such movements like Bethel and look for common ground, but never call them out as 'brood of vipers of anything'. Do you think anyone will repent for the passion translation. Anyone at all ? Or so many of their offensive silly teachings. Perhaps this is how business is done . In case it's not clear, I speak of the leadership, not the sheep, who undoubtedly are untaught in even the basics of the faith. Anyway thx in general for a strong and worthwhile channel that is sorely needed. Just don't choke up excuses for people who aren't really with us.

[mayowalewis]

Dear Remnant Radio
You guys have been instrumental to my healing from my pentecostal background. Your videos and seeing the experiences of others showed me that I'm not alone and God is still alive.
Thank you.

[Borreguita]

I found you guys after about 2 years of watching videos with christian content, mostly focused in theology and I have been pleasantly surprised with this podcast. I love it!!! I love how you strive to call out the gimmick that happens in the church sometimes and to be fair and respectful

[nancycrabtree]

This show is so valuable. Please do not ever stop! It’s a true service to the body of Christ. I don’t necessarily agree with everything you fellas say, but I can affirm your honest hearts and it sure makes me assess thoroughly what I believe and why, plus, I’m learning a LOT! Bless you!

[bsparks]

Even John Paul Jackson called Bob Jones out on teaching people to travel to heaven.

[Philagape]

Have you guys asked Elijah about The Physics of Heaven? That was written by people in his church, including Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, and you're saying it has doctrines of demons.
Or The Passion Translation, since Bethel uses it and sells it?

[becsy]

Thank you so much, really appreciated this episode. Genuine question - if we are to have nuance when discussing churches like Bethel, how does that fit with Jesus teaching that we would know a tree by it's fruit? If some of the teaching is doctrines of demons and some truth how do we judge the fruit? Jesus seemed to say the tree would either be good or bad.

[sherryannutto]

Balanced, thoughtful and gracious handling of a difficult topic. Thanks guys ❤

[brandiannek]

Judging people’s fruit to know if they are genuine Christians is based on their character and their doctrine. If Jones has a big stain on his character (hopefully he really repented) and he was known to be an untrustworthy teacher (which is where his doctrine would come in)- Why would anyone with discernment trust Jones as a brother or as a prophet?

[Tina-Marie-izzy]

Only thing I would like to suggest and talk about is this restoration and repentance issue. While I would not like to see someone held back over sins, especially when they repent and are restored back to the Church. They have no authority to continue as leaders in the Church, none as far as Scripture goes. Scripture tells us that leaders must be trustworthy, and blameless before the Church etc. When leaders betray that trust they are not to be given leadership and yet I hear time and again that these leaders, who have done terrible things, come right back to a position that they held before. Have you done a show on this and what is the correct teaching from Scripture for this? Cheers

[RexusOutfitters]

Good stuff. Thanks, guys! Well-balanced, well-reasoned, godly attitudes toward the many issues and controversies in the Church.