Proof That ALL Amplifiers Don't Sound the Same

There is a common myth that ALL amplifiers sound the same when not "clipping" or distorting. This isn't always true and in this video I discuss two scenarios that show this to be the case with measurement proof to back it up.

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#amplifiers #audiophile #sound

[Filtersloth]

OMG that Hugo clickbait!
This is below the belt Gene!

[haris]

Omg l! I thought HUGO was back! Good video Gene, glad to see you are doing well.

[bjaurelio]

The Dayton amp is not linear. Part of the argument is that two amplifiers with linear output not driven to clipping will sound the same. If you raise that upper end with a pre-amp filter that makes total output with the Dayton amp flat, both amps will sound the same. If one amp is not linear 20Hz-20kHz, of course there will be difference in sound.

[JRobert]

I agree amps sound different from each other. Even in my room with Klipsch RF-7's, they sound very different when driven by my Sunfire Signature 400-7 amp from my Denon 3313 pre-outs, versus the same receiver's internal amps. The Sunfire produces a much more full, richer and warmer sound, yet with solid and airy highs. The Denon receiver's amps sound a bit harsh and thin. This is all from the same receiver, speakers and room.

[loudandclearmedia]

Amplifiers absolutely sound different. I once had a pair of B&W 802D, as well as a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M. Night and day difference in presentation between the two. I also at the time had a couple A/B Parasound Halo amps and had just purchased a class D NAD M22.

Got the NAD in the system with the Bowers speakers...hated it. That diamond tweeter came right at my skull compared to when it was being driven by the Halo, and the difference wasn't subtle. I was about to write off the M22 when on a whim I pulled the Cremonas in from the other room and you know what, I'd never heard them sound so good. You see, the M22 was a MUCH brighter amp than was the Halo, which it turns out was a beautiful match to the soft ring radiator tweeter on the Cremona, whereas a Halo amp on those speakers always sounded wooly. The exact opposite was true when the gear was swapped to the Bowers speakers. Speakers, DACs, amps...they all sound different. I'm actually a bit jealous of guys who can't hear the differences, because they can be satisfied without spending the pile of money I have.

[MrRocktuga]

Great video, Gene.
I would love if you could develop your findings with other amplifiers, and how often have you found clearly measurable differences in amplifiers while testing them.

You mentioned several times that class D is more prone to this than the most common class AB amplifiers.
Since the argument of "all amps sound the same" vs "they all sound different" was (and still is) made mainly outside the class D camp, how often did you measured differences between lower end amps from the likes of Marantz, Sony, Rotel (etc) while operating well within their power ratings, even if driving a most demanding loudspeaker load?

Thank you and cheers.

[Paranimal]

Glad you brought this up... my head spins with the different types of amplifiers... I really want to start running separates, and want to buy an amp I can have for the next 10 to 15 years... I see the newer OSD line to the home theater realm and that 5 channel amp looks spectacular for 500 bucks... but how does it measure 🤷‍♂️.... anyways I’ve also heard that the new polk line is super picky on amplifier from multiple reviewers....

[thillyard]

I drove my JBL 590’s for years with my Denon receiver. Several times I had issues with the Denon seeming like it was overdriven (I had all 11 channels being driven). I did an A/B with a Crown XLS-1502 and an Emotiva XPA-03. Noticeable difference in sound quality using either external amp. The speakers seemed to open up, especially on the high end. The JBL’s are 6ohm and I believe the Denon just could not give them enough power as the impedance lowered and they were being driven hard on those Disney UHD tracks where you really have to crank the volume due to some mixing on the movie.

I really loved the Crown amps, and would have kept them, but they introduced a ground loop that I spent days troubleshooting and could not fix. The Emotiva sounds really good to me, but had no ground loop at all so it stayed.

[larrystoogel]

This was a short but incredibly informative and interesting video...Thanks Gene, and keep listening 👉.

[breezetidewater]

Great insight. For 2-channel listening I have a Legacy Class A amp and it sounds different than my 7-channel receiver.

[markfreedman]

Amplifiers don’t sound the same and Never have. Excellent video. You are absolutely right. Thanks

[timclaflin]

Hi Gene I just experience this with my stereo system I bought a Onkyo receiver in 2016 and was using it to drive my Acoustic Research speakers 93s I bought new in the early 90s a few days ago I bought a vintage Luxman L 505u . Both of the receiver and intergrated amp are the same output, The Luxman is the first amp to really open up my speakers on the low end without having to adjust any tone controls because of the driver configuration they are like a baby brother to AR9s.(I did update the crossover caps and I had to replace the original woofers because of a cat catastrophe

[kirkcunningham]

I went from consumer audio to pro -audio pertaining to amplifiers. I chose Yamaha after doing extensive research. The P-Series (discontinued), have three P3500S's driving Fronts, Center and Surrounds in a 5.1 These class AB amps sound awesome with gobs of clean power down to two ohms. This series of Yamaha amps were extremely popular and highly regarded around 2014-2015. Brute force and power and very efficient...

[Badgersito]

Hi Gene, definitely would like to see more videos on this topic comparing amplifiers with similar rated output and price range.

[MrRocktuga]

As someone said often, "if you can really hear a difference that don't show up in measurements, then you're measuring the wrong things".

I always put a great emphasis on "really can hear a difference" in order to try to remove any subjective bias induced differences first, and then going after the measurements of why it sounds different.

IMHO, the issue that uncovered the performance of this Dayton audio amplifier was the most important one, which was the real and clear effect that it had on the output of a particular speaker.

While I understand that measuring amplifiers with fixed loads may be more consistent as a whole, I believe that measuring the output of loudspeakers that are difficult to drive probably gives a much more real-world representation of any amplifier changes to the signal.

There are much more examples of loudspeakers with complex loads (be it on low, mid or high-end of the market) than examples that behave like a fixed load, and arguments have been made for decades about the interaction between different loudspeakers and different amplifiers (the famous matching).

It would be impossible to test all those different mixes of amplifiers and loudspeakers, but I would tend to think that some loudspeakers are particular hard loads on amplifiers (many going into the 3 Ohm range in some frequencies or/and with difficult phase shifts.

Measuring the output of that "hard" loudspeaker driven against a well behaved reference amp could give a better representation on how a particular amplifier is changing what we hear.

If that output measures the same and the typical bench tests don't find anything unusual and there are no audible differences, great!
If there are audible differences, I would go back to the initial concept, by doing blind tests before trying to understand what measurements are failing to tell us.

This is only a thought of mine...

[mrx]

I measured 3 amplifiers (emotiva, rotel and crown).. they do vary slightly but all within their posted manufacturer frequency response .. for instance crown was down 1 db at the high frequencies and that is exactly what the specs said .. emotiva was at +-0.15 db through out , rotel was at +-0.5db .. that said the da30 is kind of a budget amp with no posted frequency response spec that I can find so yes there is no telling how it will perform ..

[mechtheist]

Hey Gene, I'm more or less in the 'amps sound the same' camp, really it's 'electronics sound the same', but there _are_ caveats that go with that. From Peter Aczel almost 30 years ago, _The Audio Critic_ from its Spring through Fall 1991 issue:

"In general, any two components A and B that can be
alternately switched into and out of an audio system in an
AB test will sound the same if (1) their linear characteris-
tics are essentially identical and (2) their nonlinear charac-
teristics are below the threshold of audibility. If you think
about that statement for a minute, you begin to realize that
it‘s a truism rather than a heresy; the trouble is that the
tweaks and cultists often think for less than a minute."

That amp should not have been rated at 4ohms, it wasn't capable of maintaining a flat frequency response over the audio band. Aczel specified for amps:

"Power amplifiers must
have high input impedance, low output impedance, no fre-
quency-response anomalies, and be at all times operated
within their voltage and current capabilities in order to
sound the same. "

Transparent audio just isn't hard, they've known how to design and build it, and how to _test_ it, for a very long time. If some piece of hardware isn't transparent when it should be, there's a problem somewhere, or it could always be gross incompetence, that possibility should never be ignored.

[OH-svhk]

On PATERON, I finally found a way to MAKE A CUSTOM CONTRIBUTION to Audioholics. I just kept clicking on Pateron website and I have no memory of all the rabbit holes I had to jump down to finally accomplish a monthly contribution an become a Pateron of Audioholics I can sustain over the coming years. But, please make it easier to go on Pateron to contribute to Audioholics at whatever level people can sustain! Best Regards, OH.

[mikemcguinness]

I've had this gene I'm buying a proac d20r, and I love the sugden anv-50 amp in all the range it sounds super..but, there's a big rolloff at high frequency...I may get a post parametric filter to tip up the treble

[markrigg]

I've seen it mentioned in quite a few car audio tutorial vids that class D amps have frequency response issues. The sentiment is that they handle bass ok and should only be used for sub woofers. I was a bit sceptical about this but am now re thinking it.