Adam and Eve: Gnostics and Christians | Dr. Elaine H. Pagels

#elainepagels

A National Book Award winner and New York Times bestselling author deepens and refreshes our view of early Christianity while casting a disturbing light on the evolution of the attitudes passed down to us.

"Confirms her reputation as both a scholar and a popular interpreter.... Continuously rewarding and illuminating." —The New York Times

How did the early Christians come to believe that sex was inherently sinful? When did the Fall of Adam become synonymous with the fall of humanity? What turned Christianity from a dissident sect that championed the integrity of the individual and the idea of free will into the bulwark of a new imperial order—with the central belief that human beings cannot not choose to sin? In this provocative masterpiece of historical scholarship Elaine Pagels re-creates the controversies that racked the early church as it confronted the riddles of sexuality, freedom, and sin as embodied in the story of Genesis. And she shows how what was once heresy came to shape our own attitudes toward the body and the soul.

Elaine Pagels graduated from Stanford University earing a Bachelors of Arts in 1964 followed by a Masters of Arts in 1965, she then studied dance at Martha Graham's studio and then she received her PhD in religion at Harvard university in 1970. She is a historian of religion, and is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor at Princeton University and an Aspen Institute Trustee. Pagels joined the Princeton faculty in 1982, shortly after receiving a MacArthur Fellowship. Perhaps best known as the author of “The Gnostic Gospels,” “The Origin of Satan,” and “Adam, Eve and the Serpent,” she has published widely on Gnosticism and early Christianity, and continues to pursue research interests on topics that include sexuality and politics, visions, and the origins of Christian anti-Semitism. Her most recent books include “Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas” (was on The New York Times best-seller list) and “Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation” (2012). In 2013 she received an honorary law degree from her alumni, Harvard University, and, in 2016, the National Medal for the Arts from President Barack Obama. Her latest book published in 2018, is a departure from the others. One in which she tells her own story, and why she loves investigating the history of religion: it’s called “Why Religion? A Personal Story.”

Today's interview will be based upon one of her books titled Adam, Eve, and the Serpent: Sex and Politics in Early Christianity.

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[geraldmeehan]

Thank you Dr Pagels for thought provoking discussion. Thank you Jacob for excellent questions and hosting

[retribution]

Elaine never fails to satisfy. Who couldn't listen to her for hours on end?!

[jamesbinns]

Thank you for your knowledgeable questions, and for D. Pagels' insightful and knowledgeable answers!

[CraigRasmussen-mh]

Thank you Dr. Pagels. I’m reading your books and appreciate your gentle wisdom, especially in helping bring to light the Gnostic texts.

[mondo]

Kudos to the ever questioning Dr. Pagels. Her approach to these ancient texts is a good blueprint for anyone seeking to actually pursue knowledge unencumbered by existing ideologies. She is a treasure!

[hebrewenglishbibleread]

The Origin of Satan is my favorite. Thank you, Dr. Pagels!

[EinarGrondal]

Always good to hear Elaine's voice. 😊

[daodejing]

Dr. Pages has a valid insight, that one who has gnosis would be aware of his sin, his imperfections.

I would add that it's through awareness of one's imperfections that perfection is wrought in oneself.

Gnosis and perfection go hand in hand.

[Rannsack]

I dont think one can truly understand Gnosticism until they have read Dr. Pagels. While lesser known than Bart Erhman, I think she is far more insightful. Great interview. The host is well informed and takes great pains to let Dr. Pagels speak and not curt her off, the way some other hosts do on you tube. +1

[robertosharpe]

Thank you so much...a great interview....your channel keeps delivering the best .

[YAMISOOLD]

She is always fascinating to listen to. Thanks for this video!

[careerlifecoachskillsfacil]

Jesus said the Kingdom is within oneself.

[nosuchthing]

What's going on with eves BACK in the thumb nail

[theonetruetim]

Pagels is a Titan
HV is my fave fennel torch

[cheaptrickfanatic]

I apologize in advance, for being so bold as to disagree with someone as esteemed as Dr. Pagel, but I certainly do hear a lot of “old-guard” thinking here regarding Jesus’s take on the Kingdom of God and also misunderstandings of the Hebrew texts. As learned as she is I’m guessing I may be the one in error, but, nonetheless, I’ll explain.

Regarding her thinking on the Adam and Eve story and the trajectory of the Hebrew writings in general. She sets forth the common thinking that the Adam and Eve story and what follows in the Scriptures is an expose on why the world is the way it is and how “sin” entered the world. When, in reality, those ideas are secondary. The entire point of the “books of Moses” is a discussion about how the Hebrew deity seeks to overcome mankind’s freewill and their choice to engage in behavior that would, ultimately, drive God from the Earth.

The point is the constant attempt at redemption and relationship, by the Hebrew God. “Sin” would be a sub-plot. We see that man’s choice to forge his own path to a degree did NOT separate him from God. We are told that God felt it necessary to drive man from the Garden in order to keep man from attaining eternal life. This is also evidenced by the fact that man STILL HAD DIRECT ACCESS TO GOD FOLLOWING THE EXPULSION. As seen in Cain’s pleading following the murder of his brother. Cain’s greatest concern is that he would be driven from the PRESENCE OF GOD.

The primary thread of the Hebrew story is how Adam’s descendants continually want to pursue behavior that the Hebrew deity can’t stand to be around and how the Hebrew deity seeks to overcome mankind’s choices to engage in behaviors God can’t be around. This is evidenced in the progressive movement of God AWAY from the Earth. First the removal from the Garden, then the movement of God away from the planet and into the heavens.

It’s not because “now sin is in the world and man can’t access God.” That thinking is very “Christian” and it leads to a massive misunderstanding of Hebrew scriptures and a misunderstanding of the giving of the Law (as evidenced in the work of the Apostle Paul). A more accurate understanding is that the Hebrew God is seeking to find ways around His inability to be around man’s behavior, because of His innate purity and holiness. If we understand this correctly, then we can properly understand the giving of the Law and why it was so important. The Law was the apex of the story. It was God’s solution, to overcome his inability to be close to man again and dwell among men. He chose a group of people to give very specific regulations to. Regulations that, if adhered to, would enable Him to be in their midst.

Dr. Pagel’s tendency to lean into the more Christian idea of “sin” being the point of the story, will lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and wrong thinking. In listening to her, I can’t help but feel that she has been deeply influenced by western/Christian thought. As most have.

Secondly, I believe her thoughts on Jesus and the “Kingdom of God” and are also tainted by Pauline-type/Christian thinking. Based on the NT texts, Jesus did not set forth that Pauline style of thinking (particularly if one takes the time to try to sort through the Pauline-style ideas that may have been integrated into the gospels, being written post-Paul).

Jesus’s primary teaching and focus was NOT the hope for a new heaven and a new earth. Jesus was and ascetic-style teacher. He did have elements of his teaching that overlapped with the various sects of Judaism at that time, but also disagreed with those same sects. Leading to confusion (see his discussion with Nicodemus in John 3) and downright anger.

Jesus was someone who added to the Law of Moses and, also, watered it down at times. Leading to further frustrations from the Jewish leadership and opening Himself up to the death penalty prescribed in Deuteronomy. He is a man who believed adherence to the Law of Moses was not enough to attain his version of the Kingdom of Heaven. His idea was that the Kingdom was ALREADY THERE/HERE, but that we needed to practice a style of devotion far in excess of the Mosaic Law to perceive it.

The giving away of all personal property was central to Jesus’s ideas (see the story of the Rich Young Ruler and His comments, such as, “the birds of the air have nests but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head). Jesus was absolutely devoted to the concept of exalting poverty in the pursuit of the divine. Poverty, fasting, prayer… things of this nature would help a person in the pursuit of being “born of the spirit” and pursuing abundant life.

Again, the Kingdom of Heaving was HERE, NOW, but our resistance to giving God ALL of us and living in adherence to, not only, the Mosaic Law but also well beyond it, would get a person where they wanted to go… Experiencing living water, flowing from inside of themselves.

So, no, I do not believe that Jesus saw the Kingdom of God in that, more, Pauline manner. Being some grand, apocalyptic, end-of-the-world/new heaven and earth scenario. Even Jesus’s more apocalyptic teachings can be easily attributed to the destruction of the Temple and the annihilation of the Jerusalem. To attribute that grand apocalyptic scenario to Jesus would be foist Paul on Jesus. I mean, that’s fine to do, if one chooses to believe that Paul really did sit at the feet of the resurrected Christ and receive his doctrine directly from the living Christ. If one believes that, ya, sure, go for it! But, if we want to stay true to the texts, Jesus did not set forth those Pauline concepts.

This is a great frustration of mine. Listening to scholars who are so deeply impacted by post-Pauline Christian concepts. Seeing it cloud their ability to read and interpret texts appropriately. For what it’s worth, right or wrong, that’s how I’m interpreting her position. My sincere apologies for the length of my comment.

Blessings and love to all my fellow seekers!

[quetzelmichaels]

Elaine and Bart Ehrman became two of my favorite authors when I studied, over twenty years ago. A year ago I started from scratch writing pieces, after I found Bart's videos on YouTube. I retired last Friday. While most of this is from the foundation of my studies years ago, I have leaned a few things over the past year.

Water or... the Abyss, the kingdom of Satan, the Shining One or, Light of the world. The Abyss or, the abode of the dead, Hades, the place Jesus was given the key to, as the star "Wormwood", when he descended into Abyss. Perhaps the vegetation, created before the sun and moon, are the people saved from their corruption by sin, who will be a kingdom of priests, the Assembly on the Mount. "The waters that you saw where the harlot lives represent large numbers of peoples, nations, and tongues. (Rev 17:15 NABO)

The world will be transformed into a place of justice for the salvation of sinners corrupted by sin. No one can burn in hell forever if the gates of hell will not prevail. There seems to be some serious issues with the translation/ interpretation of the everlasting lake of fire and brimstone. I'm inclined to believe that Yahweh, the Light of the world, the Father of the Son of David who was sent to him by the holy spirit as his only begotten Son, is saving those behind the gates of the Abyss. Yet, the Father judges no one but has handed all judgment over to the Son.


Yahweh is the Canaanite God of metallurgy. The gates of the nether world (Abyss) will not prevail against his Everlasting Lake of Fire and Brimstone (sulfur) where you will be smelted and refined, have your dross removed and be purified. There, you will be tormented or tested for purity by questioning.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18 NABO)

Tormented: 1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture

Just as silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin are gathered into a furnace and smelted in the roaring flames, so I will gather you together in my furious wrath, put you in, and smelt you. (Eze 22:20 NABO)


Perspective: Sarah gives Hagar to Abraham. The origin of the story is that Lilith, Adam's wife, gives Eve to Adam, the Christ, when he begins his work of the salvation of the kingdom of Eve's Shining One (snake) David, the Morning Star.

Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Mat 25:34 NABO) The earth was barren, with no shrub of the field and, as yet, no man to till the soil. Adam tilled the soil and prepared the Garden of Eden, a promised land, a heavenly home, a new heaven and new earth, according to the plan of the Father, and then he settled east of Eden and has tilled and cultivated the earth ever since. I am with you always, until the end of the age. (Mat 28:20 NAB)

Light and vegetation are created before the sun and moon because the story is about the new heaven and new earth. Yahweh is the Light of the world and the Christ is the Lamp of the Light of the Father. Your creation story is when, in the beginning, Adam found you in a wasteland, (Gen 1:2 NABO), empty, and void of understanding, your having become corrupted by sin, and he shielded you as the apple of his eye. (Deu 32:10 NABO)


Adam, the Christ, is not of this world or these heavens. He is, so to speak, from a galaxy far, far, away. The one who ascended far above all the heavens themselves (Eph 4:10 NABO) Never to return to corruption (Act 13:34 NABO) He is a third-party mediator between you and your Father. You will not always have me (Mat 26:11 NABO) The Sun and Moon are David and his Bride. The Man and Woman are Christ and his Bride.

On the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall, The light of the Moon will be like that of the Sun and the light of the Sun will be seven times greater (like the light of seven days). (Isa 30:25-26 NABO)

Adam was without sin. The sin of Adam is prophetic of the sacrifice, when he wields the fiery sword guarding the way to the Tree of Life on the day of vengeance AS judgment, setting up the abomination of desolation in him, as the Temple without one stone left standing upon another. By his sacrifice he justifies David when he speaks and at his resurrection, he vindicates him in his sentence. The hand of (Yahweh/ David) is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. (Isa 59:1 NABO)


Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb's but spoke like a dragon. (Rev 13:11 NABO)

There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! "I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! (Luk 12:49-50 NABO)
(it is better to marry than to be on fire (1Co 7:9 NABO) Be fruitful, and multiply (Gen 1:28 KJV)
"For by my wrath a fire is enkindled that shall rage to the depths of the nether world, Consuming the earth with its yield, and licking with flames the roots of the mountains. (Deu 32:22 NABO)

Warning of the impending Day of the Lord, he was swallowed by the Beast out of the Sea and spewed out upon the shore as the Beast out of the Earth, as the sun beat down upon his head and a burning east wind began the Way of the Lord in the Desert.

The way of the Lord in the desert needs to be put into context with the previous passage:
(Joshua/ Arjuna) Sacrifice – first Beast – Day of the Lord -Indeed, she has received from the hand of the LORD double for all her sins.
(Moses/ Job) Resurrection – second Beast – Way of the Lord - Make straight in the wasteland a highway for our God! (Isa 40:2-3 NABO)
Just as it is appointed that human beings die - be judged - appear a second time, (so also Christ) Heb 9:27-28.

the one who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty (Rev 1:8 NABO)
The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer. It will come up from the abyss and is headed for destruction. (Rev 17:8 NABO)

We saw his star (of Bethlehem) at its rising and have come to do him homage. (Mat 2:2 NABO)
The star was called "Wormwood” (Rev 8:11 NABO)
It was given the key for the passage to the abyss. (Rev 9:1 NABO)
I hold the keys to death and the netherworld. (Rev 1:18 NABO)
the bars of the nether world (Abyss) were closing behind me forever (Jon 2:7 NABO)
Who will go down into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) (Rom 10:7 NABO)

As the Lawless One, with all the power, signs, and wonders at the disposal of falsehood, and seeming to be a part of the workings of Satan, 2Thess 2:9-11, he leads them astray, as if with a bridle in the jaw of the people, on the day of the great slaughter, Is 30:25-28, having been given the power and rule, along with great authority of The Dragon as the First Beast/ Red Dragon, Rv 13:2, with seven heads and ten horns, Rv 12:3.

Just as it is appointed that human beings die - be judged - appear a second time, (so also Christ) Heb 9:27-28. Then the (Red) Dragon (Demon Sin) stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. (Rev 12:4 NABO)

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, (2Th 2:8 NABO)

Master of the Demon Sin:

If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master. (Gen 4:7 NABO)
Who, robed in splendor, judges, nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head. (Psa 110:6-7 NABO)

Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole (Isa 53:5 NABO)
so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live... according to the spirit. (Rom 8:4 NABO)


No one comes to the Father except through me. (Joh 14:6 NABO)

[Mariallas]

I believe what Jesus meant when he said "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" is that he thought he would usher in a utopian nation, based on his teachings about sharing with one another, the rich giving to the poor. He thought this would end suffering. He thought he would be the leader of this nation, just as he was the leader of his little group of followers and the leader of large groups of listeners. The feeding of the five thousand is an example not of miraculous multiplying of loaves and fishes, but of sharing as each person gave some of their lunch to the basket so that anyone hungry could take food out of the basket. And at the end they had many baskets full of donated food that was much more than enough to ensure they had all been fed.

I think his untimely death came as a real shock to him, and was not any part of a divine plan. I don't know if he said anything on the cross, but I do see how his followers could have been traumatized to watch their movement destroyed along with his death. They must have loved him and his vision very much. Some quite fanatically. But they splintered, and without the original leader the splinter groups were free to interpret or embellish stories at will, to make them say anything they wanted them to say. So acts of human charity became acts of divine intervention, to lessen the burden on humans to care for one another because God would be responsible to provide.

[markcarr]

Dr Pagels, dancing under Martha Graham? Geez, your royalty. What have you not done. I love your teaching. Show us your moves someday. I've scored, for several Modern dance pieces, for some friends who go by, TUMM (Tulsa Modern Movement). Martha Graham? That's too cool. I'll stop gushing now.

[azurestarton]

The one point in the Bible which seems to contradict itself are these things:

In Genesis 3 Adam is told not to eat from the tree of knowledge because in the day that he does so he will die.
Well later it says that My people die for lack of knowledge.
Well there's a contradiction in itself.

Another contradiction is in Matthew 2:23 and it says Jesus would live in Nazareth to fulfill the prophecy that he would be called a Nazarene.
The problem with Matthew 2:23 is that verse is not a prophecy at all and the Old Testament never once mentions Nazareth or Nazarene in any way.
It mentions the Nazarite vow which is not even a town or a citizen yet a vow.
Matthew 2:23 must have been a forgery or a lie on the author of the Gospel of Matthew.

Plus if you read Numbers 27:16 it says:
Let Yahweh, the God of the spirits of all flesh set a man over the congregation.
and Jeremiah 32:27 says:
Behold, I am Yahweh,
the God of all flesh,
is there anything too difficult or surmounting for me.
These two verses disagree with Jesus teaching on the wheat and the tares by a mile.
The only way to reconcile Jesus teaching is in reference to Genesis 3.
Well here we go again back to the issue with mankind having any knowledge Yahweh does not want them even to have and the serpent that is crafty telling them facts.
Well the serpent said:
God knows that
your eyes will be opened and you will know the difference between good and evil.
And you will be like God
knowing the difference between good and evil.

I still cannot make sense of their eyes not being opened to begin with.

This is said in Genesis 3:5.

Yet if you read later in Genesis 3:22 and Yahweh Elohim said the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be able to reach out and take from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

Who was these other beings Yahweh was talking to?
Why was He so afraid of Adam and Eve getting access to the tree of life.
The tree of life would give them the ability to live forever.
What is or was this tree of life?
Nobody has ever been able to find it nor have we ever found a place where a cherubim was guarding it.
This story boggles my mind because they at from that tree of knowledge of good and evil and they got the ability to discern between the two things.
There is no wrong in discerning between two things.
It is human nature to learn and know the difference between right and wrong.

Seriously this is like telling a child:
No you cannot read that book from school.
That is off limits.
What is the real moral of the story is that Yahweh is against knowledge of right and wrong on the human level.
Plus they saw Yahweh walking in the cool of the day.
Doesn't John say humanity has never saw God physically?
What I never can understand is the practically reprimand of learning to know more.
Without learning more you just stay stupid.
Well if you read The Torah like I did it is horrific and gruesome and hard to read without being repulsed by the need to shed blood.
The thing I can never make sense of is this:
The New Testament calls Yahweh love.
Well love hurts no one.
Love is compassion on another.
If anyone shows aggression on another they are no longer loving but controlling.
I often wondered why The Torah was really in the Bible.
Was it to show how Yahweh is.
Knowledge is important because without it we get stupid or worse get dementia or alzheimers and die.
Yahweh never was happy with Adam and Eve getting wise because if they got wise they would be free to do as they wished, yet sadly wanting accessing knowledge then was akin to murdering another in Yahweh's eyes.
However I disagree because with knowledge there is no need to shed blood which shedding blood is an act of fury not mercy.
There is no love in doing such.
Love is healing another.
Love is protecting another from harm.
Love is no making things more difficult than they need to be.
If Yahweh is God He must be not for an easy life where we actually know what we are doing and have a conscience of it all.
Thorns hurt and I know woods grow plenty of them.
I call them devils because they hurt so much.
There is no love or mercy in such things.
If something can hurt or puncture you then you have every right to use a sharp object and cut it off the ground or a tree if needed.
I do that anyways because I hate those things.
Love puts no stumbling blocks before others.
I do not like the story of Job at all.
The earth is not on nothing.
The earth is founded on the waters.
Plus Yahweh's wager with satan is stupid.
If Yahweh is wise like everyone claims Yahweh would have said:
No satan hush.
You will not touch anything in Job's life.
Leave him alone.
I know that because Satan's intentions were for Job's loss of all he had.
Yahweh just let it happen.
I however can not figure of why Job is included in the canon.

[Demosophist]

I don't have a problem with esoteric interpretation except in the sense that it encourages overlooking a cosmological interpretation that is connected with collective trauma. Velikovsky makes this same complaint about esotericism becoming a bulwark against memory, and is an example of what Egyptologist Bill Mullen calls "forevering".