The Open Forum Episode 35

Episode 35 of 'The Open Forum' where Christians, Atheists are invited to join the discussion. Guests will be invited on a first come first serve basis. Please note we can only have a maximum of 10 panelists (including efdawah panelists) at any one time.
Link to join the panel:

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Timestamps/Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
00:58 - Brothers Abbas & Erfan join
01:57 - Format of the Stream
02:40 - Chinwag
04:54 - Dawah in Germany
08:52 - Christians preferring Feelings over Facts
14:45 - Advice to Christians
18:18 - Inviting Non-Muslims
18:59 - Erfan visiting England
19:35 - Street Dawah in Germany vs England
21:33 - Impact of Dawah at Speakers Corner
23:01 - Balancing Emotions & Rationality
28:47 - Brother Farid joins
33:03 - Frank joins & apologises for his remarks
33:42 - Advice to Frank
34:25 - Following David pbuh: Muslims vs Christians
38:29 - Unreliablity of the Bible
40:23 - Frank reads Psalms 19
42:23 - Discussion on the content of the Bible
49:42 - Islamic view of Previous Prophets
53:23 - Following the teachings of David pbuh
54:26 - The Bible not being Authentic
56:00 - Story of David pbuh in Qur'an vs Bible
1:00:55 - Refuting Frank's silly claim about the Shahadah
1:06:18 - Christian view of Jesus vs Muslim view of Muhammad ﷺ
1:08:42 - Biblical vs Quranic story of David pbuh
1:13:47 - Majority of People rejecting Jesus
1:15:58 - Message to Frank
1:21:09 - The Bible not being Preserved
1:22:53 - Story of David pbuh in the Qur'an
1:25:23 - Word of God: Bible vs Qur'an
1:34:57 - Soli Deo (Christian) joins
1:35:26 - Muslims' view of European Orientalists
1:39:57 - Liberal & Christian Scholars' view of the Bible
1:46:27 - The Bible not being Preserved
1:48:34 - Contradiction in the Bible about the Sign of Jonah
2:00:32 - Scholars on Bible's Inauthenticity
2:02:09 - Other Contradictions in the Bible
2:05:56 - Christian Scholars affirming Bible's issues
2:10:32 - Discussion on Bible's Corruption & other problems
2:22:47 - Contradiction b/w Mathew & Mark about the Sign of Jonah
2:44:53 - Tony (Deist) joins & shares his beliefs
2:48:37 - Humans not fully comprehending God
2:53:22 - God not needing our worship
2:55:26 - Worshipping God without fully understanding him
3:13:11 - Inviting Guests
3:14:55 - Review of the discussion with Tony
3:18:08 - Ahmed (Ex-Muslim Atheist) joins
3:19:12 - Discussion on God's existence & nature
3:29:02 - Dawah to Ahmed
3:39:02 - Explanation of Apostasy Law in Islam
3:53:34 - The Deceptions of Islamophobes
3:54:30 - Inviting Ahmed to take the Shahadah
3:55:52 - Questioning Ahmed
3:56:53 - Advice to Ahmed
4:18:35 - Closing Remarks

[asadullahsaaid]

*Timestamps:*
00:00 - Intro
00:58 - Brothers Abbas & Erfan join
01:57 - Format of the Stream
02:40 - Chinwag
04:54 - Dawah in Germany
08:52 - Christians preferring Feelings over Facts
14:45 - Advice to Christians
18:18 - Inviting Non-Muslims
18:59 - Erfan visiting England
19:35 - Street Dawah in Germany vs England
21:33 - Impact of Dawah at Speakers Corner
23:01 - Balancing Emotions & Rationality
28:47 - Brother Farid joins
33:03 - *Frank joins* & apologises for his remarks
33:42 - Advice to Frank
34:25 - Following David pbuh: Muslims vs Christians
38:29 - Unreliablity of the Bible
40:23 - Frank reads Psalms 19
42:23 - Discussion on the content of the Bible
49:42 - Islamic view of Previous Prophets
53:23 - Following the teachings of David pbuh
54:26 - The Bible not being Authentic
56:00 - Story of David pbuh in Qur'an vs Bible
1:00:55 - Refuting Frank's silly claim about the Shahadah
1:06:18 - Christian view of Jesus vs Muslim view of Muhammad ﷺ
1:08:42 - Biblical vs Quranic story of David pbuh
1:13:47 - Majority of People rejecting Jesus
1:15:58 - Message to Frank
1:21:09 - The Bible not being Preserved
1:22:53 - Story of David pbuh in the Qur'an
1:25:23 - Word of God: Bible vs Qur'an
1:34:57 - *Soli Deo (Christian) joins*
1:35:26 - Muslims' view of European Orientalists
1:39:57 - Liberal & Christian Scholars' view of the Bible
1:46:27 - The Bible not being Preserved
1:48:34 - Contradiction in the Bible about the Sign of Jonah
2:00:32 - Scholars on Bible's Inauthenticity
2:02:09 - Other Contradictions in the Bible
2:05:56 - Christian Scholars affirming Bible's issues
2:10:32 - Discussion on Bible's Corruption & other problems
2:22:47 - Contradiction b/w Mathew & Mark about the Sign of Jonah
2:44:53 - *Tony (Deist) joins* & shares his beliefs
2:48:37 - Humans not fully comprehending God
2:53:22 - God not needing our worship
2:55:26 - Worshipping God without fully understanding him
3:13:11 - Inviting Guests
3:14:55 - Review of the discussion with Tony
3:18:08 - *Ahmed (Ex-Muslim Atheist) joins*
3:19:12 - Discussion on God's existence & nature
3:29:02 - Dawah to Ahmed
3:39:02 - Explanation of Apostasy Law in Islam
3:53:34 - The Deceptions of Islamophobes
3:54:30 - Inviting Ahmed to take the Shahadah
3:55:52 - Questioning Ahmed
3:56:53 - Advice to Ahmed
4:18:35 - Closing Remarks

SubhanAllah ❤️🤍💖
Marvelous Stream 👍🏻👌🏻
_May Allah ﷻ bless you all and reward you for your efforts._ 🤲🏻

[leonidasanaxandridas]

Saw Frank...forwarded entire section with him. Read comments after...looks like I was right. After 2 years of coming onto almost all the historicity streams, he may not have learnt anything but I’ve learnt to recognise an insincere person. May Allah open your heart and guide you Frank.

[sylhetipagol]

Even after 2 years of streams covering the unreliability of the bible, Frank is still taking as if the Bible has the accurate account. May Allah open his eyes and heart to the truth.

[noureldean]

Here is the summary of the verse that Frank was asking about.
David was isolating himself to worship Allah . Two brothers broke into his place of worship. The two brothers wanted David to be the judge between them. One of the brothers owned 99 goats and the other owned just 1. The brother with the 99 goats wanted to take the one goat that belonged to his brother. David then passed his judgment. later on, David finds out that his ruling was wrong; he IMMEDIATELY falls down on his knees and ask Allah for forgiveness. According to Muslim scholars there are three lessons in this story.
1. During the time this story took place, David was a king and had the responsibility to rule his people and look after them but he isolated himself (for a long period of time weeks sometimes even months) to worship Allah. The goal is to worship Allah as much as we can BUT we can't forget about our responsibility.
2. The incident that took place was a test from God to David. The lesson here is don't pass judgment until you have all the facts and be just in your ruling.
3. If you make a mistake or sin, you have to IMMEDIATELY repent and ask Allah (God) for forgiveness.

I would say that's a very good lesson for a half page story. Allah's words are so divine. Can anyone produce a great story with multiple great lessons in so few verses. Allahu Akbar.

[السيدالمسيحعبداللهورسوله]

اللهمَّ يا مصرِّف القلوب صرِّف قلوبنا إلى دينك، واهدنا وثبِّتنا وعافِنا واعفُ عنَّا.

[obaidrehman]

If delusion had a face, frank would be the perfect match

[ASK__SAM]

Bro Erfan is very great addition Mashallah when I heard his story on TAP I got amazed very strong energy and hemma without giving up SubhanAllah… Jazakom Allah khair all brothers… the discussion with Toney reminded me… with alkahf 18 قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَنْ تَنْفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا

Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

[gurutruthspeak]

Frank "what does messenger mean" Szanto...

A true buffoon of our time.

[moizahmed]

56:00 The Bible relates a story about David in which he passes judgement on a case involving a dispute between two parties. After passing judgement David is accused of some very serious sins:

*The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. “Now a traveller came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveller who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”*

*David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”*

*Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own…” [2 Samuel 12:1-9]*

These sins relate to an earlier story in which David is said to have committed the acts of adultery and murder:

*One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant."…In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, “Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”...When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. [2 Samuel 11:2-26]*

Aside from the obvious problem that a Prophet failed to keep some of the most fundamental commandments such as “You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife”, “You shall not commit adultery” and “You shall not murder”, another issue emerges if we consider that these sins are so detestable in the sight of God that they carry the death penalty under Jewish law:

*“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.” [Deuteronomy 22:22]*

Hence according to Jewish law, both David and Bathsheba should have been stoned to death for adultery. However they weren’t, as the Bible says that David was spared death and forgiven by God when he repented by confessing his sin:

*“Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.” [2 Samuel **12:13**]*

Perhaps even more strangely, according to the same story, God struck the child that was born from the adulterous relationship with a lethal illness, which claimed his life after seven days:

*“But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.” [2 Samuel **12:14**]*

So instead of the adulterer and adulteress being punished, their innocent child was. This situation contradicts a basic principle of justice laid out in Deuteronomy:

*“Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” [Deuteronomy 24:16]*

So according to Jewish law, it was David and Bathsheba that both deserved death for their sins, not their son. From this perspective the entire incident was a miscarriage of justice.

Such stories don’t just reflect badly on David, they also portray God as being unjust, applying the punishments for adultery selectively when the laws were binding on the whole of Israel, commoner and Prophet alike.

Contrast the Biblical account with the Qur’an. Like the Biblical account, the Qur’an also relates a story about David in which he passes judgement on a case involving a dispute between two parties:

*Have you heard the story of the two litigants who climbed into his private quarters? When they reached David, he took fright, but they said, ‘Do not be afraid. We are two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other: judge between us fairly– do not be unjust– and guide us to the right path. This is my brother. He had ninety-nine ewes and I just the one, and he said, “Let me take charge of her, ” and overpowered me with his words.’ David said, ‘He has done you wrong by demanding to add your ewe to his flock. Many partners treat each other unfairly. Those who sincerely believe and do good deeds do not do this, but these are very few…’ [Qur'an 38:21-24]*

However, the Qur’an has David repenting to God for having made a mistake in judging the dispute that was brought before him. The Qur’anic account tells us that the two disputants were in fact angels sent by God to test how fairly he would judge between them:

*…[Then] David realized that We had been testing him, so he asked his Lord for forgiveness, fell down on his knees, and repented: We forgave him [his misdeed]. His reward will be nearness to Us, a good place to return to. [Qur'an 38:24-25]*

David’s mistake was to be hasty in judging the case; he passed judgement without hearing both parties in the dispute. As soon as David realised this he immediately repented. There is no mention of adultery and murder, so the Qur’an exonerates David of such an accusation.

Thus the Qur’anic account is consistent, David is portrayed as a Prophet endowed by God with wisdom, one whom had gratitude for all he was given. The Qur’an makes no mention of David committing major sins, in fact the opposite is the case; he shows righteous conduct throughout the Qur’an.

This is the conduct that we would expect of someone whom God had personally handpicked to lead Israel, not a selfish man who is enslaved to their lowly desires like the Bible claims.

[abumansaray]

Wonderful Stream. Great moderating, Abbas.

[zoezoom]

Great stream as usual.
I was expecting to see Rob mtt on board with his hadiiiif vs bro farid smashing him..

[raheelaali]

I love you dear brother Abbas for the sake of Allah SWT. Your passion and concern for brother Ahmed made me weep ❤

[taimur]

Frank 🤦‍♂️.. his desperation and stubbornness always makes laugh

[raheelaali]

Excellent stream, brilliant panel who more than adequately dealt with Frank, the man is enough to make me mentally ill. Oh so frustrating listening to this man 😮😮😮

[Just_logic]

We need a new vocabulary to express how stubborn Frank is.

[raheelaali]

To Sol, there’s no arguing with brothers Ijaz and Abbas, they are totally logical and provide clear cut documented, referenced evidences

[esrefcelebi]

01:25:00 it refers to the fact that David judged without listening the other part of the dispute. After the judged, the two disappeared, he understood that it was God's test on him (remember disputing brothers came into the place by climbing over the wall and David was startled, which means they came in an unusual way to a place where David did not expect them to be). Once they disappeared just like that he understands that he judges without listening the second part and repents for that, for which he is forgiven.

[allanwilliams]

@EFDAWAH,
@Abbas,
Here is David's statement.

Psalm 110:1
The Lord said onto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Is David acknowledging one Lord or someone else with him??

21:00, 28/08/22

[woodriver]

هنيئاً هنيئاً هنيئاً لكم أيها الدعاة إلى الله
الدعاة إلى الله ورثة الأنبياء والمرسلين بارك الله فيكم وفي أعماركم وأعمالكم وجزاكم الله عنا خير الجزاء ...
أسأل الله العظيم رب العرش العظيم
أن يرزقنا وإياكم جنة الفردوس الأعلى بجوار سيدنا وحبيبنا ونبينا محمد رسول الله عليه أفضل الصلاة والسلام وعلى آله وصحبه أجمعين 💕

[Just_logic]

Is there a real point of bringing Frank on?