Divine Simplicity is True - Gavin Ortlund vs Ryan Mullins Debate

Is Divine Simplicity is true? Well this is exactly what Dr Gavin Ortlund of @TruthUnites and Dr Ryan Mullins of @TheReluctantTheologian will be debating.

Now, we're trying a new format for debate here on Idol Killer which we hope will allow for a more richer and nuanced discourse.

DEBATE FORMAT:

Each participant pre-records a 15 minute Opening Statement. Both will be published to Idol Killer's YouTube channel at least 1 week prior to the live event. This affords not only the audience but both participants time to familiarize themselves with the specific claims and arguments up for debate.

Then, the live event (THIS video) will see each participant present a brief 2-3 minutes Steelman of the opposing view, followed by an open discussion between the participants for 30 minutes.

We then take questions from the audience which were posted to the opening statement videos, collected from Facebook, Twitter, etc. by viewers and Super Chats.

Lastly, each participant has a 5 minute Closing Statement.

#debate #christian #philosophy

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FAIR USE NOTICE

[commandtheraven]

This is one of the best "structured" debates! The steelman addition was awesome....and lacking in YT debates. Idolkiller amazing job...please host more of these topics and debates!!!

[DamonNomad]

Many years ago, when I was a nocturnal kid forced to cope as best I could in a diurnal world, the one interesting activity I could do at night waiting for hours for sleep was listening to Christian radio. One of my favorite programs, "The Haven of Rest", was hosted by one Ray Ortlund, who happened to be Gavin's grandfather. While I have never been a Calvinist and reject all 5 points of Calvinism, I have to say that Dr. Gavin Ortlund (along with his late grandfather) is probably the humblest and nicest person I know of who has been deceived into beliving that doctrine. He's basically the Leighton Flowers of Calvinism in that way, which earns him something from me that few other Calvinists have: my respect.

[Carlos-iuyk]

Need both men to know that ill be listening to this while i play minecraft.

[amber_m_OT_nerd]

This was a fantastic discussion! I love having the opening statements ahead of time. Great job to everyone! I hope to see more conversations like this!

[thoughtfultheology]

The debate seemed to end up being simply what the definition of divine simplicity is. Ryan towards the end pointed out that if you take Gavin’s position, then the majority of DS critics are in fact adherents of it. Perhaps it’s just that this topic is so convoluted that it’s hard to nail down a simple definition.

[TheUnapologeticApologists]

I’m normally annoyed when a debate gets bogged down into a disagreement in what terms mean, instead of discussing the arguments for and against the positions themselves.

However, in this case, it seems the whole thing does in fact boil down to what is meant by “divine simplicity“.

Because from what I can tell, both agree on what God is like - that He has essential attributes, and also that He has accidental attributes that don’t affect His essential nature.

But the disagreement is whether or not the idea of God they share, fits into the definition of simplicity.

Very interesting debate.

[ChipKempston]

When someone objects to your position based on what it **entails** and your response is, but that's not what I **affirm**, then you don't have a very strong argument and the debate isn't going to get us anywhere. While the debate was friendly and informative, the argument for DS is utterly unpersuasive. DS was not revealed in Scripture, is in fact counter to what we derive from Scripture, and it creates all kinds of problems that are never addressed. We all eventually hit a wall when it comes to understanding God, but if you're going to appeal to ignorance or God's absolute transcendence every time your system doesn't make sense, then your position is just not serious.

[ip]

I really enjoyed this format, thank you for your parts in bringing this together.

[coltonmoore]

I love how Ortlund is so good at allowing his opponents to have the last word. Super humble in that way.

That being said, sometimes I wish he would press his points a bit more

[gilsonrocks]

Really great discussion on the topic! Thank you for doing this. Gavin you are a true gentleman!

[danpaulisbitski]

These two clearly intelligent people give me comfort in my ignorance. I’d much rather know my place and maybe one day God will share Himself enough with me to even start to grasp some of these things. God bless everyone.

[truthseeker]

I’m not ashamed to admit I still don’t quite understand what Divine Simplicity really is. Anyone else feel this way? Or am I just too simple?

[Jamie-Russell-CME]

Thanks to all 3 for putting this together.

[pathfinding]

I'm not sure Dr Mullins adhered to the agreement to Steelman each other's positions. He seems to have touched on his opponents positions but only so he could then refute them.

[CCiPencil]

The 10% of this that I did understand was amazing. The other 90%, makes me appreciate others who are far more knowledgeable

[paulthomson]

It"s very quaint that Gavin feels the need to protect the omnipotent God from accidents.

[blakeceres]

I just started the video. It looks like Ortlund fairly steelmanned Mullins' arguments. But it seems Mullins just created three arguments on behalf of Ortlund, not addressing his main arguments, but rather extending one of his minor points. Odd.

[jadtucker]

In the future, I think it would be helpful to have the definition of the terms and the scope of what is being debated agreed upon ahead of time and clearly presented. Gavin seems to be saying there are different "definitions" of DS. OK. Which one is he affirming? Which one is being defended? Likewise, which version of DS is Mullins arguing against? I am halfway through the debate and it doesn't appear these two are on the same page on what DS is or is not so how can we have clarity on whether what that is or is not true?

[LaymanBibleLounge]

Looking forward to watching all of this!

[huey]

Great discussion. Let's do a part 2, where Gavin can defend Trinity and Freedom in light of DS!

I can't affirm DS bcuz I don't understand it enough to explain it, but with maybe with enough strengths perhaps I could