A Psychologist and Historian Discuss the End of the World | Dr. Niall Ferguson | EP 404

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with historian and author Niall Ferguson. They discuss the historical and deeply mythological precedent of world-ending narratives, how the global doomsday ethos abdicates local responsibility while empowering the elite class, the out-of-control gigantism plaguing our administrative states today, and how we might strive to deal with genuine tragedy morally, religiously, and with humility.

Niall Ferguson is a Scottish-American historian, author, columnist, TV presenter, and academic. He is the Milbank Family Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University, as well as a senior fellow at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University. Ferguson has written many books, such as “Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World,” “Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire,” “The Square and the Tower,” and most recently, “Doom: The Politics of Catastrophe,” which has been shortlisted for the Lionel Gelber prize.

This episode was filmed on October 12th, 2023

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(0:00) Coming up
(0:33) Intro
(1:30) All worlds end, the permanence of death
(8:23) The duality of cataclysm and adventure
(10:41) The Book of Revelation: Spectacular imagery gives justification to the conceptualization of God
(11:35) Why science fiction loves dystopian themes and a secular wasteland
(15:45) We would break Heaven for the excitement of Hell
(21:30) Asceticism: humanities strange tendency for self-harm in preparation for the end times
(29:00) Delusions of “the science,” virtue signaling over problem solving
(34:13) The Tower of Babel, and how this story reiterates across time
(37:59) This is the only “law” in the study of history
(39:58) We want to live in a “moral universe”
(42:06) Worldviews that outlive their eras and religious roots
(45:04) The “sin of Eve,” morality, and the tendency to overreach
(49:59) Oppenheimer, ethics and the ability to destroy
(54:24) Drinking the snake oil, why Oppenheimer was ineffective as a peace lobbyist
(56:53) Henry Kissinger: the cost of preemption and the necessity of action
(1:02:42) Every good leader should aspire to this

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[andrews]

So it seems college level discourse has left the campus and come to YouTube where it can be accessible to everyone with a cell phone and a browser. It would seem culture is moving forward despite the common narrative from established interests. Thank you for this time well spent.

[Oscar-mruj]

A talk between Jordan Peterson and Tomas Sowell would break the internet

[scotty]

The way these 2 brilliant men just talked is how we should be sorting out our world problems with integrity and respect and a genuine intellect and a genuine care and desire to fix things and not to have the arrogance of not listening truly to each other until we find the answers together, not for praise or popularity but for genuine want of a better state of being which will bring a better world, thanks again Mr peterson and all your guests

[michellet.]

It blows my (average) mind to listen to such brilliance, but I'm not envious... in fact, I'm immensely thankful that I'm able to expand my own thinking and understanding by having these wondrous discussions so readily available to me. Thank you Dr. Peterson for the gift of these experiences.

[imperfectstillworthit]

11:14
If the Kingdom of God - as described in the Bible sounds dull to you, you haven't experienced gods presence, power and love in your life yet. There is nothingt comparable to it, and the only possible respons is to cry out "Holy holy holy" as the saints do... I truly wish such a life changing encounter to every one 🙌🏼🔥

[andrewcdavies]

This episode has totally blown my mind. Learned more from this conversation than the entirety of my three year university education. This is going to take a very long time and so much thought / reading to unpack. The ending was extraordinary. Absolutely first class content. Thank you both.

[billhopen]

"solving global warming by installing solar cells created by burning coal in China" I love it! In one sentence, Niall vividly illustrates our political dystopian rule

[PrinceAlhorian]

Thank you doctors Peterson and Ferguson for this illuminating conversation and allowing us, the common folk with the simple minds, to indulge in a classical academic conversation. Civilized, educated, eloquent and enlightening. It is thanks to academics like yourselves (who still have critical minds and post their work publicly) that in this turbulent age of malaise and manufactured outrage, I have received a better education than my degree provided me a decade ago.
Descartes classic "I think therefore I am", I have taken and reversed to be more applicable to myself: "I am therefore I must think." I prefer to "think" about the matters that you both discuss.

Once again, Thank You Doctors.
Sit scientia mentis tuae sapientiam in cordibus nostris colens.

[lanevotapka]

I really want to commend Dr. Peterson for improving in the area of avoiding interrupting his guests. It used to be very distracting, but he has clearly worked on this.

[legoforestmen]

I started watching here and then finished it on the daily wire, and I found his conclusion at the end, that Christianity has historically been the greatest bulwark against communism, Marxism, fascism, and totalitarianism, to be extremely profound.

Psalm 92: 5-6
"O Lord, how great are Your works! Your thoughts are very deep.
A senseless man does not know, Nor does a fool understand this."

The more one understands and studies history and the Bible, the more one sees that the only hope for humanity is the Lord Jesus Christ. It's encouraging to see these two men look at history more honestly than many, and to see honestly the truth of God that becomes clear with the study of history. I hope in the future that they both become saved and born again Christians. ❤️✝️

[ezilyyi]

"The World Isn't Falling Apart, The Veil Of The World Wide Corruption Is" ... 100%

[karenk]

PhD American history here. I am just beginning to appreciate Dr. Ferguson's work. Thanks, Dr. Peterson, for bringing him into the conversation of "who we are, and where the hell are we going?"

[eldaytripper]

I appreciate how JP attempts to reiterate NF's comments after he has spoken. More interviewers should do this. I think NF makes some excellent points about apocalyptic thinking and the difficulty of political decision making.

[FreedomSpirit]

I'm am so glad that I stumbled across Jordan Peterson by watching an interview with Dr. Oz. I knew nothing of Dr. Peterson. I knew of Dr. Niall Ferguson through watching C-Span. These brilliant minds together on the subject of the Apocalypse which delve deeper into Revelation, more Biblical content but yet not being dogmatic is brilliant. Thank you.

[pauldowell]

“I am a lapsed atheist.” I didn’t see that coming! What a terrific conversation. It was like watching two heavyweight boxers. Then they started doing a beautiful waltz together. Well done guys.

[stind]

A really fascinating conversation between a pragmatic Historian and a Psychologist steeped in Myth and religious ideas. Both approach from different perspectives but the concordence of ideas is enlightening. So much of the current landscape made sense after this exchange.

The heart of the matter is nobility. To be exalted in character. Something sadly missing in public life.

[theEnt-]

Encore! What an enthralling masterpiece of intellectual artistry!

[neilmurdoch]

That is how you conduct a conversation. A Historian and a Psychologist managing to combine their understanding without interference.

[kbjohns]

Am I the only one who found this conversation deep and personally challenging, but laughed hysterically when Dr Ferguson declared he was a lapsed atheist and church goer at the end? So good Dr Peterson!! Thank you!!!

[trubadorphotography]

Wow! This was not only an absolutely fascinating discussion, but also a completely surprising end to the discussion. 😲😃😌 Bravo! 👏🏻