Warlocks are changing and I have concerns 😬

★ Edited by Bia

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[mimeticsd]

I want to see a reality dating show-style campaign where level 1 warlocks compete for the affection of several potential patrons leading up to the big reveal of the pairings when they reach level 3.

[TheBlrp]

Sorcerer reaches level 3: *chugs gallons of dragon blood*

[WhiteOwl]

House rule: You can pick your patron at level 1 and not get the abilities until you have proven your commitment at level 3. That way the backstory still works.

[joshg]

I’m imagining a Warlock Hiring Agency, where you apply and get a little bit of power while the agency shops your contract around to interested patrons. You get your subclass at level 3 when they send you a letter saying that [Patron] picked up your contract and you get the powers then.

[Camo]

I feel like a lot of this confusion could be solved by just giving some examples in the flavour text. Having a few lines about ‘Your Warlock may scrounge bits of power from stray texts before finding out the true source of this power, and pledging themselves fully to their patron, who has been leaving those pages behind to find one worthy of serving him. Another Warlock may seek out their patron and know their face from the start, but must earn the right to use the abilities uniquely given to those chosen by their patron.’ Giving a couple examples of how the story may work for the mechanics would help so much, instead of just a single kind of obtuse solution.

[mikececconi]

You know, "brat" like "bratwurst". They're a silly little sausage!

[thomasloos]

For me, this just confirms my preference for starting campaigns at Level 3 anyway.

[judemiller]

IMO the simplest thing is to say the PC DOES know who their patron is at Level 1, they just didn't "deepen their connection" strongly enough to start unlocking specific subclass features until Level 3.

[gentleOx]

6:00

Yes, this is my biggest gripe whenever someone - often new DMs - has legit questions or criticisms about DnD and certain features or rules. The proposed solution often follow something like "It's the DMs responsibility to...", "Flavour is free", "Just homebrew x or y" - yes, this is true, as long as the DM and the table agree, we can basically reflavour and homebrew anything we want or make certain ruling if the rules are unclear or breaks due oversights from the design team. DnD can be played anyway the table likes, no one will care or notice if you're not playing exactly according to PHB. And it is great that so many creative and talented people are putting out homebrew classes and systems for you to incorporate into your game, if you want to expand on certain aspects or tweak the game in a certain way.

But that's not the point. The point is that you shouldn't have to: it's sloppy design! If a boardgame requires you to look up ruling on forums, everyone would agree that the rulebook is poorly written. If a videogame requires mods from the get go to play properly, that's a legit thing to criticise. But for some reason DnD gets a freepass because "the DM can just change it, if they don't like it"? WoC has a professional design team working on an IP worth millions of dollars: the base product should be tight, properly play tested and not introduce these grey areas for DMs to fix.

[MorningDusk]

From a pure mechanics standpoint, I always saw it like “you have your patron, cleric domain, sorcerous origin, etc. from the beginning. You just don’t get anything unique from that interaction until a higher level”. A sorcerer is still a sorcerer, even if their draconic bloodline looks just like wild magic until they use their breath weapon for the first time.

[autumnmarilyn]

It just feels like there’ll be a very popular house rule of “warlocks know their patrons at character creation”, it is so random to me

[alexandercross]

I have been running it as "you know what your subclass is going to be" for every class from day 1. It impacts almost nothing. The problem is the "mystery patron" idea, not the subclass at level 3.

The Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Monk, Ranger & Rogue know what they want to be when they grow up. The Paladin knows what he's swearing his life to. The Cleric knows who's answering his prayers, The Druid & the Wizard know what their mentor/master is training them to do, and the warlock has a pretty good idea who he just made a deal with. The sorcerer may or may not know who his daddy is but thats his problem

[FletcherBaker-mu]

To be honest, I think WotC had the assumption that only new players are starting at level 1. I think they got a lot of data/feedback that many campaigns start at level 3. This makes the warlock change make sense.
If you're a veteran who is going to have a good idea of who their patron is, you're starting at level 3 with your subclass already picked.
If you're a new player, you don't have to answer these extra questions until you level up a couple times.

This is *mostly* speculation, but not entirely; in one of their videos, they talked about making changes based on "the way people *actually* play the game". They may have even mentioned starting at level 3, but I don't remember what video it was to go back and check.

[evilallensmithee]

3:12 Wow, Warlock was already the character class that said “I make questionable life choices”, but now they flat out have no idea who the 🤬 they’re selling their life to or what they’ll get in return. 😂

[adanufgail]

I feel like "You don't know your patron" is kinda the antithesis of how the Warlock/Patron relationship is. Sure, I'm certain some characters are offered a "deal with the devil" from a shadowy figure, but this seems to be forcing a "I suddenly have magical powers after being contacted by SOMETHING or SOMEONE and I have no idea who they are, why they chose me, or if I agree with them morally" plot into every campaign, unless the DM/player just ignores it. Yes, if the player/DM agrees to that, it's a great storytelling and narrative world-building device.

But I agree with Ginny that it doesn't make sense most of the time and is a bad design decision. It reeks of "We tried to streamline character creation" which is fine, but they also seem to have gone a bit too-far in that direction and have stripped a lot of narrative reasoning as well.

[lemonZzzzs]

To me, choosing a subclass at lv 3 doesn't mean they haven't chosen a patron yet. It means up to lv 3 ALL patrons have the same effect, so all warlocks are indistinguishable. They still derive their power from their particular patron, however.

[CGCommando]

Its an interesting shift I'll give it that, receiving spells and invocation receiving the Patron is a little bit of putting the cart before the horse, but I can also see the narrative potential.

The initial spells and invocations are part of the deal making process, a free trial, a seduction, power given on credit, and then 3rd level hits and the patron meets the warlock properly to bind the deal. Something along those lines, it definitely requires talking to the GM but thats always been true for Warlocks

[bennettellis]

I think the mystery patron is a fun idea, but I don't like how the 2024 rules make it seem like the only idea. Like, I think making a deal directly with a demon or fey that your character meets is a far more prominent and easily understood story archetype, but the 2024 class writeup and subclass progression pushes you away from that.

[amybuchanan]

Got me thinking about how it plays for multiclass warlocks.
Multiclassing into warlock gives a chance for the patron story to unfold better than in 2014 rules.
Multiclass warlocks that never reach W3 never know their patron (that's strange)?
As you said, getting DM and player on same page is crucial to telling the story they both want.

[nomadzophiel]

My thought: If I remember correctly, 4e Warlocks were "students of forbidden lore" or some such. Moving that up to 5e2024, your first two levels are picking up magical secrets that involve tapping into otherwordly powers and learning how to make a pact with them for even greater power, maybe even learning about different options during play through dusty tomes and such. The powers of the first two levels still come from an eldritch source but not a specific one that can make demands of you. When you level up to 3rd, you have to either Do The Thing (ie pick a patron and roleplay the pact, whatever that looks like) or multiclass.

It would be nice if the book actually said something like that, though.