How quantum physics debunks determinism | George Ellis

George Ellis discusses what physics, biology, cosmology and computing tell us about determinism.

Determinism, the idea that the causal nature of the laws of reality mean that every event is pre-determined, is the most common criticism of the notion of free will. But what if determinism wasn't true? What if the current state of the universe could not have been predicted at a previous point of time, even with sufficient data and proccessing power? What if causation was not solely bottom up, and complex systems had genuine powers of causation? What if we had true powers of autonomy, unshackled by previous events or lower level structures of causality?In this course, Templeton Prize Winning cosmologist George F. R. Ellis takes us through quantum physics, cosmology, computing, biology, and psychology to explain how we harnessed the forces of randomness and developed the unique power to consciously cause events in the universe.

#determinism #quantumphysics #quantumcomputing

George Ellis is a cosmologist and mathematician. Co-author of The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time along with Stephen Hawking.

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What do you think of this talk? Leave a comment below.

[ariadne]

really well said 05:28 "by the very foundation of quantum physics, what happens in the universe at microscopic scales cannot be described in a deterministic way."

[guysimpson]

What I got from this (so far) is that, sub-atomic particles are UNPREDICTABLE, however, when we scale up the experience to a human level, it becomes PREDICTABLE. So an UNPREDICTABLE universe MUST give rise to a PREDICTABLE human experience. HOW can that therefore clarify anything about human "perception" of DETERMINISM?

How can we design an experiment to "measure" "determinism", that is INVARIABLE of the scale of the experiment?

[joedavis]

... Dr. George Ellis, I'm glad you are talkin about purpose. William Burroughs said we need three things for happiness : purpose, function, and conflict.... Let's hope we choose a purpose that is moral.

[sjoerd]

Ellis’s “evidence of purpose” is not objective evidence of being undetermined. It is subjective evidence, based on intuition. The objective biological evidence leads to it being a thought determined by physical biological processes.

Indeterminate does not equate with undetermined. It simply means unknown.

Ellis is unconvincing in his assertion that Quantum physics shows that the universe is undetermined and clearly not everyone in the field agrees. Quantum events are, at least, statistically determined, and it is just an assertion that the universe is not determined. It is question as to whether we have enough data, and it is likely that we do not have enough data. The wave function, for example, is time dependent and location dependent. We cannot measure the position and momentum of a particle simultaneously. This might be relevant to the collapse of the wave function. When Ellis says they have looked and haven’t found a variable it doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

Chaos is a misnomer. So called chaotic systems are determined by their starting conditions, repetition, constituent parts and outside influences that occur during the process of repetition.

[josephshawa]

Did I miss something? Randomness is used by biology to attain non-determinism? I think that particular GIANT step in logic deserves a little better explanation. No?

[Contribute_TakeCare_Learn_Play]

This doesn't debunk determinism in the free will debate.

Since randomness is not free will. And randomness then still creates a cause after some option actualizes which leads to an effect which then is a cause again.

So determinism in free will debate (everything is caused so that the will is also caused and how that is handled is also caused) remains true.

[bozo]

A randomly deterministic universe isn't much of an improvement.

[fractalnomics]

1:24 Absolutely. It's covered by chaos.

[stelissa]

Doesn't the delayed choice quantum eraser suggest that the Universe IS deterministic? That experiment is an extension of the double-slits experiment.

[maxwelldillon]

I'm excited about the revived interest in superdeterminism spearheaded by Sabine, Gerard, and others.

[cinematic_monkey]

It is deterministic and time is a variable.

[eduardqwerty]

Anyone who believes that every event has a cause must thereby deny the very first cause. In my opinion, modern cosmology itself is incompatible with determinism.

[nivekvb]

On free will -

Our bodies tell us what they want: things like intimacy, sex, love, fun, entertainment, sleep, rest, what activities, and what types of food or beveridges, etc, but then we have to go around getting these things and it's up to us how we do it. In that way we have free will.

[Peterbennettmusic]

Prediction is not the same as determinism. You can have determinism, but still not believe in the bottom-up universe.

[nycinstyle]

"The distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." Einstein found that past, present, and future exist simultaneously. All are real. All are out there within the universe. I kind of think he is right. Determinism is truth.

We feel like we control our thoughts and our lives, yet in truth everything from the start is based on cause and effect. It has to happen as it does. We are not yet smart enough to figure out how at the micro level everything happens based on cause and effect. I think one day we wil understand that Einstein is right. Our thoughts, our actions, our lives - cause and effect. All of it. Like the rain faling from the clouds, it has to happen as it does.

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.”

Here you go, TIME IS NOT A CONSTANT. Everyone in science, including brilliant minds like Isaac Newton, thought that time is constant throughout the universe, ...Until Einstein came along and figured out it isn't. In far reaching areas of the universe the time there correlates with our past or our future depending on which way the observer is moving. If our future exists out there in the far reaching areas of the universe, then it is seemingly set. Can't be changed.

[petervandenengel]

It is randomly deterministic, meaning an evolution could lead to a collaps, or surpassing the problem by chance or intelect, or because of a costum.
So, what is determined? Everything possible, which is close to nothing. But there will always be surviving spots as well.

[mdb]

Some thing is not quite right about Quantum physics. So how can debunk anything?

[Paulus_Brent]

Determinism is like Bohr's atomic planetary model. Everyone knows that it is wrong but everyone thinks that way.

[martinbennett]

This talk fails to establish that quantum uncertainty translates into macroscopic uncertainty. The uncertainty of leptons and bosons is well known but at a microscopic level that does not obviously translate into magnitudes that are several orders larger.

In any case, the kind of determinism that George Ellis claims to refute is future determinism. Determinism that asserts that all events are ascribable to prior causes is not refuted.