Analyzing Thematic & Narrative Consistency in P5 vs. P5R (Persona Analysis)

So, P5R or P5 ending... which one is best? ...Or are both equal? This video will explain both endings! What are the themes explored in each one, and how do such themes tie in to the main narrative of each respective game?

Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:04 Part 1: Dissecting the Original P5 Ending
6:45 Part 2: Setting the Stage~ New Semester, New Themes
12:28 Part 3: Fighting Maruki (How Royal's Game Design Emphasizes Individuality)
17:17 Part 4: The Case for Royal's Ending
24:10 Concluding Thoughts: So Which Ending is Better?
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[LadyVirgilia]

Thanks for putting up with my overanalyzing once again 😄


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[yuna]

Maruki's calling card:
To Takuto Maruki:
Wishing excessively for everyone's happiness, you have committed the crime of creating a self-righteous reality.
However, we did not dwell on this false happiness, we wish to move forward, by overcoming this pain. Therefore, we cannot accept the salvation you advocate. We will steal your distorted desires. We will take back our future.

Signed, The Phantom Thieves of Hearts"

[vlombardo]

About the ambiguous fate of Akechi, someone on Tumblr edited that frame where he appears (lowering the brightness to see his face) and indeed, it's him. The guys in front of him also look exactly like the guys who were interrogating Joker. I don't think Shido's guys would've let their hitman go free so easily.

[frisolaxod]

I will say that Persona 5 Royal's ending is a lot more thought provoking to me than vanilla Persona 5. When I saw Persona 5's ending at 2019, it gave me hope to find a group and to find a way to have my own place in society, but it was just that.

When I saw P5R's ending in 2020, it hit me like a truck. I heard the song over and over, and thought about what I experienced countless times, it made me realize that what I really wanted was to find a path that I can call my own, along with the people I love. And that it was okay to suffer and have my downs and ups, because I can't expect my life to be so stagnant all the time, eventually I have to move on, make my own choices and live the life I want to live.

In a way, Akechi's words in 2/2 struck very deeply with me. His willingness to go down his own path no matter what, no matter how much it hurts him or the people around him, just so that it is *his* path, and not the one that another person made for him, was something that I didn't know I needed to hear. Choosing what someone expects I would like isn't the way I would like to live, and if the path I choose involves suffering then that's just something natural.

Overall I prefer stories that don't show you a picture perfect happy ending, but the one that shows us how each person evolved and formed their own thoughts and decisions towards a better future. I like hopefulness, but I like it when it's one that shows you the reality of life with its losses and gains. Which is why Royal's ending showing you what each of the thieves lost and gained from their journey mattered so much to me. Because they still looked up and walked forward, no matter what.

[dubiousmage]

When you were talking about each PT's personal goals that they're working towards through the Confidant ranks and in post-game, it reminded me of a minor peeve I have with the game.

Haru wants to run a cafe, or start a small chain cafe, and we never get the option to tell her to talk to Sojiro, a guy who literally is already doing that, who has a strong, open, honest relationship with all of the PTs. Any time she asks Joker for help or expresses frustration with anything, it's always something that Sojiro would be better equipped to help with.

"I want to make better coffee." Talk to Sojiro, that's literally what he does.

"I want to grow better veggies." Talk to Sojiro, he knows his veggies since they're a big part of his curry. He knows when they're good, and probably has some knowledge of how to grow them.

"I want to be a better business leader as majority shareholder in Okumura Foods but I'm a high schooler and idk what I'm doing or who to trust." I'm a high schooler too, but you know who we know who runs a business? Sojiro, even though his business is smaller, he still has to know the basics of how businesses function and the things that need done. I'd imagine he's also not only trustworthy, but a pretty damn good judge of character, and can help her figure out who on the board is trying to manipulate her.

Haru would be *so* much better prepared to achieve literally any of her goals if we had the option to convince her to hire Sojiro as a retainer. She doesn't need him all the time, and he wouldn't be available all the time due to running LeBlanc, but that's fine. There's no reason she can't have him "on call" for whenever she needs advice. She's got the money to afford his help, and he'd probably make more money doing that than running the cafe (not that he needs it). Not to mention, we know he has a huge soft spot for Joker and his friends, all she would have to do is say "Would you be willing to..." and he'd already be thinking "yes" before hearing what she was about to ask.

[Neon_Chameleon]

The one thing you didn't mention was the nature of the choice to join the bad guy. In P5 it's ... there. You can join Yaldabaloth. But I don't think people do other than to see that ending. In P5R there is a genuine case for accepting Maruki's reality. It's the wrong choice, but it's a choice worth thinking twice about. Also the other part of the ending is the death of Goro Akechi - which has far far more weight in P5R even if you only make it to the P5 ending in P5R because he has a real social link. (Also Akechi shooting "Joker" in the head has a massive weight for the same reason in P5R when in P5 he was just the obvious traitor forced on us).

[TheKisekiNut]

Never fails to amaze me how you can break these games down to analyse their most notable elements, and communicate it concisely in a video like this. Really cool to listen to as always Lady!
For the giggles, I decided to go for that bad ending on my playthrough, never felt so much regret for doing so. Reloaded for that friendship immediately!
I'm somewhat indifferent on which ending is better, probably because I didn't get the chance to see P5R's first hand on my own playthrough, but I appreciate that Atlus even pumped in an extra 30 hours of content, and that they made Akechi in to something... oddly likeable in his own jerkish way.

[kxvjfgl]

Excellent analysis. The only thing I want to add is that the P5 ending also has this angle of believing in humans, trusting that they _can_ build a future for themselves. After doing so much work to help humanity, Joker is faced with the awful truth that nobody ever wanted the PT's help. The way I see it, this realization makes Joker snap in the Bad Ending: he betrays and loses faith in humanity in response to it betraying _him_, falling prey to the same corruption he fought against. Meanwhile, in the True Ending, Joker maintains his hopeful determination and faith that mankind can and will do better than Yaldabaoth thinks, in spite of confronting it at it's worst.

[aizakkukun]

Persona 5 Royal's ending is just way more personal for me and hits way harder for me as well, I played through the Royal content when I needed to play it the most, while playing it I was dealing with a very treasured friend's (the very first friend I made in college) dropping off of college, I was trying my best to cope and move on with what happened for months, I was able to relate to Ann the most in Royal since her wish was just her being able to spend more time together with Shiho, I thought to myself, if I were in Maruki's reality I think the wish he'll grant me right now is me and my college friend still together in college. So yeah I'm definitely called out while playing through Royal lel. Then when I was about to finish Royal, on the part where they all rejected Maruki's reality, it really inspired me to also move on with what happened, seeing how everyone is prepared to face the harsh reality they're in really gave me the motivation to move on, and it really means a lot to me. I had to learn that people come and go the hard way and it's really depressing, but I guess there's always more opportunities to meet new people and form new connections in the future, and it's not like we're gonna stop being friends after that. Overall Royal's ending is just way too personal for me that's why I prefer it over Vanilla

[clarityc]

Man, I do appreciate the even-handedness of this analysis. I had a really hard time with Royal's ending, which broke some of my favorite things about the ending of vanilla P5, but time and space (and your trenchant discussion about thematic consistency, even if I do still argue that Royal seriously messes with the pacing of the extremely well-plotted Hero's Journey of the original game) have helped me appreciate it more. I read Royal's ending as a tragedy compared to the original, but there's a lot of merit to a good bittersweet tragedy, and this one is well-earned.

Interestingly, I'm not sure if it would feel so very bitter to me if I hadn't loved vanilla P5's ending SO MUCH, and I don't think I'd have loved the original ending so much without my experiences with P3 and P4. Throughout the game, P5 feels so much like a thematic conversation with P3 and P4 to me (which is a whole separate essay)--but one thing audience members have learned across the series, if they've played through it all, is that there are rules to Persona games. Igor is your friend, you must gather up the power of your social links to defeat the god bent on destroying humanity, and the protagonist always, always leaves at the end. Those are the rules. Doesn't matter that you love your friends enough to seal away a god with those bonds, you still have to go home at the end.

One of the best things about P5 is how it keeps to that formula but also messes with it both for and against the protagonist. The Yaldabaoth reveal wouldn't be half so impactful if we didn't know from the start that Igor was our friend. And the end of the game feels like such an impossible TRIUMPH, not just in the face of a year of rumors and ostracization and struggle, but in the face of the Great Seal falling asleep on a rooftop and the goodbye cries of everyone you love as you pull away on a train. The protagonist always leaves at the end and P5 is no different, but this time, THIS TIME, after three games, he's finally found and earned that loophole. He leaves, but he gets to take his friends with him. They've literally changed the game.

At the end of Royal, you-the-protag sit on the train alone with your sleeping cat, still wearing your glasses-mask, with memories and the hope of text messages and the hint that maybe, MAYBE Akechi is still out there somewhere to keep you company. So Royal feels like a tragedy, after that--because you COULD have kept your friends. The end of vanilla P5 seems to represent a commitment to staying together even as they move forward to more mundane struggles. It could be argued that the Royal ending is more realistic, because after all, your friends were just going to go home anyway, and it's better to face the pain of the truth that people grow apart than try to hide from it (hello, Royal thematic consistency!), and I won't say that's untrue, but that's never how it felt to me. It always felt more like the Royal ending was a price the protagonist paid. Maybe he's paying happily for the fact that his friends have now learned to face their trauma and stand on their own two feet without support. Maybe he's paying for the weakness of almost allowing the world to fall to false constructed happiness in the first place. But it feels like a price.

I do really appreciate getting to hear someone who really liked Royal's ending analyze these themes like this! It gives me some food for consideration, and it's nice to know I'm not the only one who (way, way over-)analyzes these games like this. I'll probably end up checking out more of your Persona analysis vids after this!

[LeahLovesNature]

I get why a lot of people say they like the original ending better than the Royal true ending, but as sweet as that one is (and as much as I love the song "With the Stars and Us"), I think I prefer the Royal ending. Just like you said, it focuses more on the Phantom Thieves as individuals, and to me, that shows how they'll still be connected to each other no matter where they are in the world, which is how good friends should be. Joker would've had to say goodbye to them, anyway, since they'd all have to return to Tokyo. Besides, even after he takes the train home in Royal, I imagine they all took that van out to visit him the first chance they got. Knowing them, that wasn't the last time they all got together before Strikers.

[gabrieldelmaestroduarte]

I played vanilla p5 before the release of Royal, and really digged the ending. It seemed "appropriate" and "satisfying", though it also felt "safe".
Royal, on the other hand, challenges you to reflect about the P.T.'s actions and your own beliefs. Maruki is honestly a perfect final boss: a good person with good intentions that got misguided by trauma, and a character that feels insanely relatable. I honestly didnt want to fight him.
Vanilla's ending might feel better in a vacuum, but Royal's ending lingers on your mind for longer. It feels more real, relatable and honest.
Ps: I've been watching your videos for a while, but this is the first time I hear about your condition. I just want to say I admire your work and the effort you put in all your videos, despite the circumstances! :)

[pedro]

P5R's theme kinda remind me of The Answer's own themes, with how Akechi is reminiscent of ??? (altough maybe alive but you get tue idea) and how the casy is going to move forwards with their future but still keep tabs on each other (Arena Ultimax for example)

[mystery]

11:19

LV, I believe it’s more than just survivor’s guilt, it could also be an inferiority complex, self-loathing, possibly suicidal thoughts.

Why else would Sumi run a red light on the street?

[stormbunevitch]

Ngl saying goodbye to everyone on the final day got me up all choked up and sob a bit this game like all the rest really know how to tug at your heartstrings

[OPFan]

I rarely leave comments on videos these days, but this one left such an impression on me, that I just have to. Hello, Ms. Virgilia, I've been enjoying your Trails-related content immensely since this year amidst the current situation, and as you see by my profile picture, I love Persona 3, it's my favorite game. I am also currently playing through Sky 3rd (once that's done, that's 7 games down and I can finally get to Cold Steel 3!!!), so you naming Ren Kevin just warmed my heart.

Anyway, regarding this video, it's very interesting how each version of P5 resonated with me at different times in my life. I played the original P5 just as it released in Japan, and it's themes about coming together to face the world spoke to me a lot since I was starting an entirely new stage of my life where I was in a completely new environment and barely knew anyone. So gradually making connections while remembering the union of the Phantom Thieves is a memory that will stay with me. Five playthroughs later, and while I still appreciate the original game's placement in my life in that respect, Royal's themes speak to the current me. Like yourself and others, I've also experienced and lost along the way since I played the original all those years back. And like the thieves in the game, I often think about the what ifs and should haves.

But whenever I watch those epilogue scenes, by listening to your personal connection with the game, and when I think of games like Royal, Dragon Quest XI, and of course Trails (particularly Azure), I remember that in this present moment there are people with me, dreams I have forged, goals I am setting out towards. And if the team at Atlus' goal was to help remind us players to embrace and be proud of the present we created and live in, I think they did a very nice job.

Ms. Virgilia, thank you so much for making such a well-thought out and thought provoking video. I haven't felt this impacted from one for a long time, it really made my week. I look forward to your upcoming content in the future, and thank you also for all the wonderful contributions you have made to both the Trails and Persona community.

[withlovemays]

I had to laugh (in a positive way!) when you started the conclusion with "Well...neither is", because that is what I thought when I saw this video. I thought "Wait, isn't this very subjective in this case?" but clicked anyways, because I enjoyed all your other analysis videos so much, that I even recommend them on my IG and annoy my friends with it. A game like this deserves depths anyalsis.

Like you said, for your own very personal reasons you enjoy P5R more! To me, P5 hit home like a game probs never has.
I value friendship and teamwork a lot, which is what got me so into P5 from the beginning. Like a lot of people I've been an outcast, bullied and went through middle and early high school basically friendless. It only stopped after school where I was elected as the leader of a dance team in my city for several years. Coming from school and being able to go see what felt like my people was what got me through the last couple of school years. From then onwards, I got the courage and formed a tutoring system at my school after much talking to the teachers. It went so well and I was so glad I could lead that for the last 2 years of school as well. Since life isn't a video game, my school experience and mental health didn't magically change, but these people really pulled me through it. Sadly we disbanded after fights happened between members in late 2018 (again, life is no cool game) so it's just a bittersweet memory by now; but I am still friends with some of the members and I cannot deny that they helped me through times.
That might be why the P5 ending had me sobbing and resonates so much within me. Akira/Ren/Joker/however you call him gets this false probation, is seen as an outcast and lowkey unknowingly gathers fellow outcasts in and around his school. From that onwards everyone betters themselves as individual through the group. They together face those issues and the one that is being hurt from it can get through it stronger, since they've their friends by their side who can feel the same way with the other issues in the game. Which all leads up to the end when we've to fight Shido. It's done together, once more, despite that it's actually only Akira's and Haru's personal problem. It will affect all of them if he becomes prime minister, but other than that it's only those two - and they still do it as a group as well until the very end.
The main point I got froom P5's ending is: That despite everything you've been through or go through, as long as you have those important to you by your side, it's not as dark as it may seem and not all hope is lost.

So all in all it is probably just from the type of persona we are and our experiences we've gathered in life so far what we felt was more satisfiying. I'm gonna say I really enjoyed the whole thing with Maruki and this "fake" reality. We all can name something we wish to have from the past. Like right now typing this comment makes me miss my group, I recently lost two very close friends since they weren't health anymore, etc etc. It's really tempting, but I like how once more the game tries to tell you what should matter more.

In all honesty, I like both! I guess just everyone or at least a lot of people will favour one due to how they are.

This is probably hands down the most personal and one of the longest comments I have ever written, but I just enjoyed your analysis videos so much and am still kind of overwhelmed I found something like P5. Good shit.

[CaptainOcelot]

Amazing work on this video by the way! My ending opinion is very simple: I prefer Royal because of the more tragic air and the mystifying ambiguity of the coming days. Also I think "Our Light" can be interpreted as Joker coming to terms with the loss of Akechi and that's art to me.

[riasuregald]

My only problem with Royal's ending is the final cinematic where before the protag gets on the train, he bumps into Sumire and she has her ponytail tied up even though the story went over what that symbolized. so for her hair not to be down is a really inconsistent/confusing detail that just didn't sit well with me.
Not to mention that she was not with the gang at the end in the car made her also feel rather distant instead of being a new ally.

[thatguy]

Man PR5's ending is going to make going into scramble awkward!