Jordan Peterson: Career vs. motherhood: Are women being lied to? | Big Think

Jordan Peterson: Career vs. motherhood: Are women being lied to?
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Around age 19, women are generally focused on their careers. That changes around the age of 30 when they realize that a career is not the primary purpose of their lives.

There are a handful of things that are actually fundamental to life, and if one of them is missing it will get in the way of personal fulfillment.

For the women with ambitions to be mothers, teaching them that careers are more important does them a great disservice.
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JORDAN PETERSON:

Jordan B. Peterson, raised and toughened in the frigid wastelands of Northern Alberta, has flown a hammer-head roll in a carbon-fiber stunt-plane, explored an Arizona meteorite crater with astronauts, and built a Kwagu'l ceremonial bighouse on the upper floor of his Toronto home after being invited into and named by that Canadian First Nation. He's taught mythology to lawyers, doctors and business people, consulted for the UN Secretary General, helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia, served as an adviser to senior partners of major Canadian law firms, and lectured extensively in North America and Europe. With his students and colleagues at Harvard and the University of Toronto, Dr. Peterson has published over a hundred scientific papers, transforming the modern understanding of personality, while his book Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief revolutionized the psychology of religion.

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TRANSCRIPT:

JORDAN PETERSON: What's the relative importance of career and motherhood in a typical woman's life? I'm 55 and I've been working with men and women my entire life. And I've watched this. And it's quite obvious. It's like at 19 it's all career. By 30 that's just not the case. It's not the case. I don't know if I've seen a single woman who I didn't think had a psychological problem who hadn't seriously flipped in their attitude towards the balance of family and career by the time they were 30. And then you see lots of women who at 40 haven't had kids and perhaps wanted to and that's not a pleasant situation.

I was talking to a woman who was about 39, a professional woman – attractive, well put together, competent, well educated, successful in her profession, unmarried, in a relationship with an older guy but unmarried and desperate to have a child. She said no one ever talked to her about the fact that she's actually want to have a family or encouraged her to think about doing that. It was as if it wasn't within the realm of possibility that one of the things that she might have the ambition to do would be to be a mother. And that's just not acceptable.

And it was like she woke up in her late thirties and thought well, the first thing she thought was this profession of mine is actually nowhere near as comprehensively fulfilling as the advertisements claimed which is something that virtually everyone discovers as they move forward in their professional career. No, I mean the reason you get paid generally for your work is because you're doing something that you wouldn't choose to do if you weren't being paid for it. And so the idea that your career is going to be the fundamental source of your fulfillment is true for a very tiny minority of people. And even with them it's complicated. So she was tearful and upset about the fact that it took her so long to discover that there were other important dimensions to life and that motherhood turns out to be well, how many things do you do in your life that are fundamental, right? You have a career and your education so that would be part of your career development. That's part of what makes you generally useful in society and perhaps a place that you find some meaning and purpose. You have your friends. You have your family like your parents and your siblings and so forth. You have your kids. You have your relationship. That's it. There's four things. Now you can expand that to some degree. You can have, maybe you're creative and make good use of your personal time. There's other factors that aren't trivial. But those four things are canonically important. You miss one of them and you're going to pay for it.

And so our society needs to rethink our relative valuation of career versus motherhood. So we don't know how to solve this problem but we could at least have an intelligent...

[bigthink]

Hello, Big Thinkers! We would love to hear your stories: did you or someone you know have to face this choice? How did you go about it?
P.S. Remember, this is just one person's opinion, so it's ok to disagree, as long as we are leading an open discussion.

[christofferfelipe]

"The reason you get paid for your work is because you are doing something that you wouldn't choose to do if you weren't being paid". That statement is actually harsh, but actually a fact and real....waoh

[YesNo-dmdx]

I have no interest in children but it's pretty obvious having a "career" is not the most fulfilling thing in life.

[songsthesoul]

The flip side to this comes from stay at home moms who don't have a life outside of the family and when she becomes an empty nester she suffers from depression and loneliness. Balance is the key. The acceptance of the fact not everyone is made for parenting. Great video thanks for posting

[samanthakiu]

My mom is 60 and have 4 kids she said motherhood is NOT for everyone. Being a mom is a lifetime commitment, she’s happy to be a mom but it didn’t fulfill her life she let go a lot of opportunities and dreams for her family, she has a lot of if only. That’s why she is very supportive of me of not having children. She says at the end of the day what is important you are happy, contented and no regrets.
we are filipinos btw.

[elisabettadiac]

I just wanted to add something to the table. It's so important to plan these things and talk them out with your partner as well. My parents haven't been great at talking about kids before having any and now their relationship is completely broken. They fight every single day. My mom does everything (cleans, pays the bills, makes food, takes care of me and my brother, and that hasn't been easy because we have some health problems and they were worse when we were young, she did everything alone, my dad only used to drove her to the hospital sometimes). Dad doesn't even know what being a parent is. He is always mad at us when he has to drive us to school. He gets mad when we need any kind of help around the house really. He is always shouting at us. He has developed an alcohol problem as well. They want a divorce, we want a divorce too (we the kids) but they can't get one because we (the kids) would both want to live with our mom but she doesn't earn enough money to take care of all three of us. So their life is a mess because dad never really wanted to be a parent. He wanted kids, but he doesn't want the responsibility of being a parent. Make sure you want to be a parent as much as you want to have a kid. Don't be like dad. So just to make it clear: Some people are just better off not having any kids. They are just not made for it. It's gonna make the families miserable and they'll make their lives miserable as well.

[snowstormonsat]

I love being a mom! I don't miss the career. Lost my job due to economy/pandemic and that's ok. Love being home with my child.

[JRM]

This is the problem, everyone else is trying to tell someone how to live their life and what they should think and believe, whether it is marriage, love, dating, sex, career, parenthood, etc... . A full filled life is unique as the person who is living it. LIVE YOUR LIFE, BE HAPPY AND DO NO HARM.

[Yolduranduran]

My coworkers with children are exhausted. Especially right now that they work from home. The kids don't understand what it means to have mom working at home. During our Zoom meetings they cry, shout and want to be in the meeting. I feel so bad for these ladies. I give them so much credit.

[helgaioannidis]

I am German and I live in Greece and people here usually plan their lifes including being a parent. And that includes men, because most Greek men are very dedicated to their children and grandchildren.

My husband and I both work reduced hours in order to share household and parenting (we have two children now aged 11 and 15).
We first tried the classic arrangement of me staying home and him working full time, but he was unhappy and I felt like I was getting dumber every day. So I started working part time and he quit his job and found something with less hours. And then he kept reducing and I started adding hours to my worktime. At the moment I work more hours than him and I feel like for us this is perfect. He is much better than me with keeping the house clean and helping the kids with their homework and I love my job.
So I think this is not just something women should think about, but all people.

[instagamrr]

I completely agree. I live in South Korea now, and here men thank women for their sacrifice of giving up their career to stay home and take care of children. This is such a noble and respectful attitude compared to what women face in the west, where staying at home with children is almost considered lazy.

[danielgareth]

I have studied science of happiness, I want to add some scientific findings and perspectives here. People want easy truths, but the reality is much more complicated. Humans are complex and diverse, and there are many types of happiness. Parenthood can be all, positive, neutral or even devastating. I want to share some main findings from the happiness science on parenthood here:

1) General life satisfaction: (Only) in the first 1-2, fresh parents report on average a higher general life satisfaction. Most are excited and happier - but only in the first 2 years. The statistical findings are consistent, throughout the 2 years, the satisfaction falls slowly back the individuals (genetic) base line level. The main reason in short: parents adapt (call hedonic adaption). Statistically speaking, after the first two years of parenthood, parents stay on the average level of their baseline happiness. This perspective says: For most parents, parenting has only a (!) short term positive effect (max 2 years). In a long run, children do not increase the general life satisfaction. The satisfaction stays on the base line level for the next 20 years.

2) Emotions: Parents report both - higher negative and higher positive emotions - after the birth of the child. This is not a contradiction - positive and negative emotions are (!) separate systems. While enjoying time with the child causes a lot of extra positive emotions, parents face a lot of more stress, burden, duties and complications. In short: Parents feel more joy, but more burden and stress - at the same time.

3) Changes in other life dimensions: Children lead to significant changes in many other life dimensions. Important to note: How the change looks like can be very different, depending on every human. People report differences in the dimension of finance, spouse relationship, sexual life, friendships, free time/leasure etc. Common changes are: less time, disrupted sleep patterns and fatigue, more financial stress, loss of distant friends/friendships. Some report a worse relationship with their significant other, some a worse sex life. While the negative changes rather outweighs the positive, parents report high levels in meaning/purpose though (point four below)

4) Meaning/purpose: Even though parenting is indeed hard and demanding, many parents find a lot of meaning and purpose in raising their children. Purpose is a separate and special type of happiness dimension. Having purpose in life can

Summary: Parenthood and the effect on happiness is complicated. I remember reading a book that took (!) 200-300 factors into account, trying to figure out what factors lead to more happiness, what factors lead to more suffering and what factors are redundant. In short: It's complicated - and everything is possible.

I hope these scientific perspectives could add some value here :).

[skryvazena]

I'm a career woman, at her early 40's, single, no children. Just want to say, of course I long to have a family, however, sometimes a woman can not find or meet the right one during her twenties/thirties to get into a marriage/family. I had many friends back then, but no one fell in love with me and vice versa to the point of wanting to get married. I don't understand why, I didn't specifically pursue a career, but I couldn't let my self depend on others or my parents which would happen if I did not pursue a career. This career vs motherhood is not really that helpful. It gives some insights, but at the end not everyone can get what they want in a perfect timing. I did find love at my late thirties but it was a one-sided if you want to have a love-based marriage life. So, I might be too ideal, but I had this small experience that even a relationship does not guarantee a happiness. It's always come back to our own self as how we find our own happiness regardless career or motherhood.

[TheAmandad]

Even when women do stay home it’s nice if they can have something to fall back on. I went to college and worked and now focusing on my kids. Each year as they get older I add more things that interest me back into my life. It’s hard to be balanced.

[JG-zuwc]

Not all women want to be a mother. But the overwhelming majority do. And this “motherhood” job is a long term, demanding, can’t-quit job. Many emergencies and lots of obligations that interfere with a secondary job. You can’t be equal if you can’t give 100%. Now - men who choose parenting above career are at the same situation exactly. They will get paid less and promoted less and later than men who don’t .

[Sfam]

I think the biggest benefit of a woman having a career is the security she gives herself. Otherwise she’s dependent on what her husband can give her, which is completely in his control. She’s also at a loss of her husband cheats on her or decides to one day leave her.

And I say this as a wife and stay at home mom. My life isn’t bad and my husband brings in enough money. I don’t regret my choice to live this way. Just saying that it can sometimes be a little unsettling when I realize the fate of my life is in his hands.

[rondolo]

I did not go into a career for fulfilment. I did it, so I can be self-reliant. Jobs are not perfect but they offer much more freedom and flexibility (and less means to control you) than being part of a traditional nuclear family where the man is the main provider.

[kathleenjohnston]

Yeah but motherhood isn't for everyone. Some women just don't have that urge to have children and that's also fine. Better to not have children then to have kids you never wanted.

[mikochild]

The reason why parents don't have those conversations because so many women were unhappy with only having motherhood. The grass isn't necessarily greener on the otherside. Sometimes it's harder to start your career after your children are grown and out the house. I recommend balance. Think about what is important to you. But don't buy the lie that career isn't important because you may look up later and hate that you didn't do all the things you wanted to do. I had my child at 30 and still miss the things I could have done. Or you may be the woman who chose career and miss family. Find a balance. Right now I'm a mother and I figured out how to make both work for me. And no, I'm not saying my way is the way. For others, it's one or the other and not both. Again, figure you out.

[amandaneumann]

I knew from childhood that I wanted to be a mother over having a career. I know it’s not for everyone but it IS or at least should be an actual choice. I’ve had to rise above people trying to make me feel bad for not wanting a career. My husband and I came to an understanding early on that was MUTUALLY agreeable and we have both been extremely happy with our arrangement.