The Most Profound Moment in Gaming: MGS2 AI Conversation Analysis Part 2 of 2

This is my brief analysis of what most people would agree is the most profound moment in gaming: the final conversation that Raiden has with the Patriot AI at the end of Metal Gear Solid 2. It really speaks volumes to a number of topics in Philosophy, Psychology, Sociology, Ethics, and Science. But perhaps most importantly is that it presents one of the best arguments for control of the human race by AI, something most science fiction stories never even attempt to do.

If you'd like to just view the AI Conversation itself you can find it here:

If you're interested in buying Metal Gear games I recommend this Amazon link:

Re-Uploaded version with slightly better voice track and minor editing changes. All game footage is used for commentary purposes.

[tjjordan]

“Our beloved monsters. Enjoy yourselves.”

I swear, that line feels like it’s meant for us.

[TheEnigma]

I love philosophical talks such as this. It's a big reason I like mgs as a whole. The ideologies and social commentaries are presented in a very interesting way.

[davemarx]

looking back at that ending, I can easily see why people think Raiden was in a VR simulation for the entirety of the game.

ArsenalGear crashes into the city, Solidus and Raiden have a sword fight and then Snake and Raiden have a conversation in the middle of the street still wearing sneaking suits and wielding guns and swords... but not one person shows them any attention.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Raiden and, by extension, the player wants to believe that they have won and that they are now free from AI control. they want it so much that they're willing to ignore the obvious discrepancies in their environment.

[FilmproduktionSilkwormPictures]

I was 15 when I played this game for the first time. This conversation...actually the whole ending turned my whole virgin world upside down. An intense feeling i've never felt again since then and I fucking miss it :(

[cashman]

the music, along with the philosophical dialogue, always creeps the shit outta me

[jesserueckert]

When I played this game for the first time when I was a kid I didnt understand any bit of the AI conversation because it didnt make any since to me at the time. But now I'm 25 years old and I understand every bit of the AI conversation.

[jraed]

Find something worth to pass on... Even if reality is disheartening and ideals are flawed. I truly believe in the goodness of people to figure out what is right. This game will be one of my greatest inspirations. 

[BruceLeedar]

Someone has probably pointed this out already, but evolution doesn't mean improvement. This is a popular misconception. Evolution simply means change.

If you swap out evolution for improvement, by what metric are you measuring these things? It's going to be fundamentally subjective, no matter what you think of (because you, a human, are thinking of it). Including strictly quantitative stuff like 'continued existence of the human family tree' or 'maximum utilisation of nearby solar energy'. Ultimately an AI, whether a copy of the human brain in structure, or an original creation, will be coloured by human nature or human intentions, which are of course... subjective.

The argument that strong AI is suited to be world dictator based on their superior effectiveness at improving humanity is not tenable, because the idea of improvement is not natural, it is artificial (man made).

[SoloBuggMaster]

Dude you should analyze the part when Rose and Raiden talk. VERY IMPORTANT! :p

[BloomfieldIND]

Rose's subtitle 9:35 actually said "You have to beLIEve me" !!! The MGS games are terrific.

[MaxxDomination]

I commented this elsewhere but I wanted to share my opinions here too:
This cut scene makes me think a lot. About the truth behind free will, the capabilities of humanities, and extent of our ability to understand. Despite the overwhelming amount of information given, the most important thing, or to avoid contradicting myself, the easiest thing to interpret is the dangers of half truths. Interpreting something incompletely or only to fit one's needs is damaging to not only the growth of the person but society as a whole, and this type of mindset is everywhere. Despite people thinking that they are objective, media, organizations, and affinities they align with influence their decisions on what is they feel is important, without whole understanding what is presented. Even this behavior is present in interpretations of this scene, whether it be against political correctness, the belief that AI is vastly superior than human beings, or the presence of secret organizations in society. Doing exactly what they are preaching against incomplete interpretations. People chose what they deem to the most important to their point, mostly being the first 5 minutes of this sequence, only to present to their peers, with similar opinions, continuing to confide themselves in their gated communities. But what really made me think about this is what side is right in this conflict. Considering the context of this scene, the patriots thorough this game have been painted as the bad guys in this game, so should their speech be disregarded as radical nonsense and the AI gives this speech as their system is glitching out so is this the true intentions of the Patriots and an actual message from Kojima or just a glitch, or but with the proof of the patriots' presence and control throughout MGS, is it another example of our reality, our truth, not being true? Does it do this scene enough justice to put things into terms as basic as right and wrong, is it simply the AI's, a entity free from the detriment of emotions, observation of the flaws of humanity. However still the question must be asked for our simple interpretation of life, is complete freedom even attainable and is the method we do it correct. The AI criticized humans but AI, technology are only the extent of humanity, we build what we are able until we can make something greater to replace it. Humanity can adapt but at this moment most AI can only do what it is programmed to do. The Patriots' AI was built to analyze humanity the logical way, however that is only one way! Raiden asks a very good question that they do not answer, what defines what is the most important, does the one with the most results, however that is still only one way, there is still prevalence with emotion, feeling, and intuition. But we most remember the true context behind this information as this was created by men, incomplete creatures defined the AI and were influenced to created this analysis; however they could have made this as a critique for themselves as well. However in many was this analysis is incomplete and should not be considered the word of God. But there still is some truth to it, and it creates even more questions like is it even possible for humans to completely interpret information and what would be the result. Is Kojima telling us that it would create a superiority complex like the Patriots and their AI? Or is this whole wall of text just another half truth? Nobody truly knows but the men and women who created this themselves, however this may exercise one freedom we have. The freedom to interpret.

[TheArtisticHuman]

Well here's a true test to this and it happened to me and many for some of you.
--- When the malfuntioning a.i colonel said - turn the game console off right now? Weird as this may be, it's actually true through the use of digitized information through human senses. 
What i didn't expect was to see colonels face turned into a skull with the on-set of very weird calls, that... through fear and emotion consciously made me turn the console off as a young pre-teen. Does anyone follow?

[LogosSteve]

I've actually met him and tried to see if I could get an interview, he was on a tight schedule though so I couldn't really get him for a few minutes but he's a great guy and he actually seemed interested in talking about this role he did.

[Xarkom]

These games SUBTEXTS were what made it great, and not their front story.

I love the series as a whole but for a lot of the fans, lots of the subtext and messaging within each individual title is lost on them.

From a Subtext and message stand point, MGS2 still stands as one of the best in its series. but 3 over all as a game is the best one in my opinion.

[HOPEBIZBOY]

Sony should buy the MGS franchise from Konami and let Kojima develop a new MGS6. But wait, is that even my idea? Who’s controlling me?

[MasterJunior]

To be fair, Snake only told Raiden to find SOMETHING to believe in, and find it for himself. When Raiden asked him what to believe in, Snake just told him that's his problem.

"Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself, and when you do, pass it on into the future."
"Believe in what?"
"That's your problem."

Snake only helped Raiden with the first step. What came afterwards was up to Raiden to figure out for himself.

In MGS4, Raiden chose the path of a soldier, even going as far as becoming a cyborg ninja. However Snake pulls a 180 and tells Raiden what he told him wasn't exactly what he meant. Snake was referring to passing on everything he learned as a child soldier to his family; making sure that his kids understood everything he went through so that his kids wouldn't have to go through the same trauma. A counter argument could be that Snake never knew Raiden would have a kid, but he still wanted the very best for Raiden and to settle his affairs with Rose.

"No. There are still some things you need to take care first... And people you need to talk to."
"I have no future. In a few months, i'm going to be a weapon of mass destruction. But you... You still have a family."
"You still have your youth. Don't waste it! You can start over again. I... We torn the world apart, made your life a living Hell. It's my duty... to put an end to all of this."

Snake wanted Raiden to have a life, something that a clone bred soldier could never have; he did try to live a normal life in Alaska, but he was called back out of retirement. As a clone bred specifically for war, Snake can never retire or find peace.

This was Snake's meme: a soldier fighting for a future completely freed from nuclear tyranny. Raiden's meme was to protect his family and fight for his right to live as his own person instead of a tool.

[TheSorrow]

Its not My fault, Its not your fault!! I LOVE IT..

[LogosSteve]

Their mentioning of free will was separate from their talking about self. They were illustrating the human ego, you don't have to be taught it, it just feels good when you're praised for doing things "by yourself" because we have things like self esteem that are based on if we're emotionally satisfied with ourselves. But of course we immediately dispense with that to try and blame other people if it helps us save face. It's just a crutch in a way to protect our self esteem.

[williamvangorden]

Yep this game was definitely intriguing to say the least.

[PSspecialist]

Can you even argue against what the AIs were saying here? If an equally capable AI could take the place of our idiotic politicians I'd gladly allow it to stay in power. We do need a good filtering of useless information. If you think about it, even this statement that I just made is proof that someone like me will never be capable of free will. I liked the argument they made without even making a conscious attempt to debunk it because what they were saying was in my interests, it might as well have been a half-truth and I would have accepted it. So even even if someone could somehow prove that their arguments are wrong and full of crap, the bottom line remains the same. Humans are incapable of free will.