BEST Initiative System for DC20 and D&D 5e

Does this change how YOU will use Initiative in your DC20 and D&D Combat? ⏬ More Content ⏬

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0:00 Intro
1:01 Core Initiative System
2:10 Initiative checks made
4:39 PCs roll as a team
11:42 Live Play Example #1
15:54 Live Play Example #2
17:59 Pros and Cons Survey
20:39 Alternate Options
22:38 Closing

#dc20

[Scrut]

Sounds exactly like how in Pathfinder 2E when the PCs have an Exploration activity the DM can have the PCs roll for initiative using whatever ability they were using during the Exploration phase instead of the normal ability score. For instance in PF2E if you're using the "Avoid Notice" activity you use your Stealth for initiative instead of the normal stat Perception.

[Elkay_J]

I love the direction here.
One downside ive seen, and we saw it in your youtuber stream, is the whole concept of rolling with the action you want to do in combat, like the example of rolling with a grapple.

It leads to this really weird moment of "why do i need to reroll this grapple check that I just rolled for initiative? Was I graplling them or not?"
And that is almost exactly what happened during the stream.

[BestgirlJordanfish]

Ah, the classic vibe of “fix D&D5E by making it either closer to 4E or PF2E”.

I absolutely prefer using enemy “readiness/initiative” DCs and clump like enemies together. So smooth and fast.

[thecompletejake]

What I don't like about the "what you were doing" becoming your initiative is if what I was doing was grapple or attack or whatever, then my character doesn't do that because that became an init role instead. Then when my turn comes up, what if I don't want to do that grapple or attack anymore, based on what else has happened in that encounter? Just feels a little clunky. It should just be a prime check so that my initiative is determined by what my character is most apt to lean on. Did my high mental stat help me perceive what was happening and react quickly? Did my high agility help me physically react quickly? Did my high might mean that I was already tense and ready to pounce? That's way cooler.

[JKevinCarrier]

As a DM, I'm generally against anything that requires me to do more work, and this seems like a LOT of extra work. Instead of a cut-and-dried process that everyone can do without having to think too much, now the DM has to make a bunch of judgement calls: Setting a DC (based on what?), determine (or adjudicate, if the player suggests something) which roll each character will use, and then decide what order the enemies will go in. Have pity on my tiny, already-over-burdened DM brain.

[treasend-o]

If you did a good "stab attack" roll for initiative and and then need to reroll the "stab attack" but get a bad roll now it feels like rolling to hit and getting a high roll then rolling damage and getting a 1 in DnD 5e

[BigBrain]

As someone who has not play tested this systems. I like the idea of this initiative system not having the GM roll for initiative but setting a DC seems a lot smoother than my experience with rolling initiative in DnD as a DM.

I like the idea of making a ability check for initiative, but it might feel bad rolling a low bonus check for initiative.

I love the team based initiative. It can be a idea to have a floating order in the teams.

[LeFlamel]

You call it double dipping, i call it transitional elegance. If you roll low on a grapple initiative check and the enemy moves away before your turn, it's a failed grapple (but notably you don't lose the action point for the attempt). If you succeeded you pay AP for the grapple as per usual. I wouldn't let players change their mind to not pay the cost because that'll encourage more min maxing behavior, so you're commiting yourself to your first turn's action but not being punished if it fails.

[quincykunz]

I like setting an initiative dc for the enemies, then anyone who rolls higher goes first, then enemy, then low rollers, then minions and reinforcements if one side massively outnumbers the other.

[ShawnLearn]

I love this idea, I would likely suggest having a fall back initiative of agility though. That way if when you ask what the player character was doing and the player says “I don’t know” you can quickly just tell them what to roll and keep the game moving. Also it allows using agility if the action the player was doing doesn’t make narrative sense as to why it would matter for initiative.

[donbutto]

most of the time when a group is moving around, the DM asks for a marching order. So the DM knows who is in front and who is in the back of of the group, especially in a narrow path situation. I just have the leader of the groups marching order the guy in front, roll initiative. Then the DM rolls for initiative. The PCs initiative order IS the marching order, that they didnt have to roll for at all. Then just back and forth alternate the PC and Enemy as needed. Much less pausing/rolling and more control to the PCs.

[thecompletejake]

Maybe the initiative DC should just be a stat on the enemy stat block so the GM doesn't have to create a situational initiative DC on the fly.

[ivangreengaming]

I really like the transition this system promotes. The only thing I didn't really like, based on the one-shot with the youtubers (awesome btw), was when players had to repeat their checks for whatever they were doing and then for initiative, it made things slower and confusing in case the rolls were very different. Ex: If I passed the grapple but then I'm last in initiative did I really grapple? if I fail the grapple but then I'm first in order I'd just try again probably, so in the end it can all boil down to adv/disadv which is basically 1 AP and wouldn't really affect the battle too much if you "double dip" on the roll. In most cases, unless the party is full of min-maxers, the rolls would be things like stealth checks, social stuff or a flashy entrance which, at most, would make the DM give adv/disadv to some players so every way I see it things balance out naturally.

[wiph]

I think there should be some sort of abilities that just add a bonus to whatever initiative check you do. Kind of like the alertness in D&D that gives you a plus. 5, having pizza abilities or possibly an agility bonus that lets you increase your initiative. If you want to specialize in it, that applies to whatever initiative check you do

[tambarlas]

I need to remind myself that things like "initiative" is only to organize combat (which actually takes place simultaneously) to make it turn-based for ease of organization. With that said:
- I don't like needing to make the same roll twice - first for initiative and then for the action roll (ex: "drop kick"). This also freezes each player's first round actions. If the last player in the round sees everyone's actions (party and enemy) before them, do they still have to do what they declared at the beginning? What if that no longer makes sense? If they want to change their mind, does that re-arrange the initiative order?
- I like the idea of an encounter "Initiative DC" to determine who goes first and how the party and enemy swap turns. I think the DC20 manual needs a bit more to help account for non-matching numbers of players vs enemy.
- The DC20 manual describes the "Initiative Help Action". If the initial roll is to beat an encounter initiative DC, why would the party not always do this?
- As you (briefly) mentioned, DEX is OP. There is a difference between quickness of mind/thought, mental reaction, hand-eye coordination, physical reaction and steadiness of aim - yet that is all lumped up in DEX. Perhaps the skills should not be determine solely from one attribute - ex: Medicine is some kind of a combination of Intelligence and Agility.
PS: you mis-spelled "NOT like" for "NOTE like" in two of your survey questions

[Snags]

I like the prime stat check. Takes initiative out of Agility, which is the actual main problem with 5e initiative anyway.

[minimoose]

I like the second half of the system: with setting order, the DC, the back and forth, and no roll by GM. The first half with the PC rolling for what they are doing seems confusing and awkward, as well as potentially slow, rather than smooth and streamlined.
A lot of things in DC20 seem designed to be smooth and streamlined, but that "what were you doing? roll X for that thing. But that's actually not for doing X, it's just your initiative and you still need a separate other roll for X after/before this initiative roll, " seems rough. I'll still playtest it myself, but I am very skeptical about that portion of it.
My gut tells me to just have the players roll with their prime-modifier instead for initiative using similar justification as other instances of Prime usage.

[chrisg]

I have been using Side Initiative, but it is very swingy. I like this alot. I think I'm gunna try out this style of Initiative.

[bitspersecond]

Taking20 posted a vid awhile back about how the ping pong initiative method, exactly how Coach described it, fixed all of his problems with the Challenge Rating system and making encounters much closer to what they were supposed to be (easy, hard, deadly, etc).

[Xorgrim]

I am only 9 minutes into the video, but so far I have a few questions/concerns regarding the alternating order of team members in initiative:
1. What if there are more than two teams? Allies or neutrals? or what if the players stumble into a conflict of two NPC factions battling each other?
2. What if one side heavily outnumbers the other? Example: 3 PCs 6 enemies... I would probably let two enemies go have their turn between PCs.
3. What if reinforcements arrive on let's say turn 3 of the battle? When do they go? Do you split up their turns as well or will they share the same initiative?