The crucial F1 engine row amid imminent Porsche/Audi F1 decision

Formula 1’s bid to attract Porsche and Audi has yet to clear a major hurdle as there is still disagreement with the incumbent engine manufacturers over concessions for new entrants.
F1 is trying to convince the VW Group to commit to building a power unit for the new regulations set to be introduced in 2026.
These regulations have to be signed off by the FIA World Motorsport Council by December 15 and they have been specifically framed to encourage the VW Group, which owns Audi and Porsche, to enter.
But with some self-imposed deadlines fast approaching, several major items of discussion appear to remain unresolved within the F1 paddock and the VW boardroom.

#F1 #Porsche #Audi

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[biggallcaps]

More teams = more seats for young rookies or skilled veterans to shake up the finishing order and likely improves the racing

[kurohone]

Got to agree with the existing manufacturers on this one. VAG doesn't need big concessions to make them competitive straight away.

[haribo]

I would love to see the VW group to not just join in as an engine manufacturer, but actually with their own team, either a new team for which they have the inhouse knowledge, or a takeover of a team like sauber.
On a personal note, I would love to see them join as Lamborghini. Basically going back to the roots of the tractor manufacturer being turned of by Enzo Ferrari and thus showing him how he wanted sport cars to be build.

[SammyInTheCloud]

I don't see a reason why VW can't enter a new team. The 200M payment to the existing teams can be waived for the right new entrant, and having VW (Either as VW, Audi or Porsche) enter the championship as a team can easily boost the value of the other F1 teams as it adds legitimacy to the championship, not to mention the existing teams already growing in value.
Having additional teams on the grid also means more drivers get an opportunity. I'm outraged that Oscar Piastri is looking to seal the F2 championship this year as a rookie but doesn't have a race seat for 2022.

[weareanonymous]

Porsche should enter as an 11th team. Given how hesitent VW is with F1 in the first place, and given Porshce and Audi's constant movement into and out of other categories like Le Mans and Formula e without any stability, its just too risky for teams like Red Bull or McLaren to stake their futures to. Williams may be willing as a gamble to launch them up the grid. But all the teams will have concerns about how much control and influence the VW Group will demand, and vise versa VW will not want to concede control to a partner. It's not as if Porsche lack in-house skills/experience to pull it off, their vast motorsport experience and methodical german mindset will mean they will not underestimate or misjudge the challenge (unlike Toyota or Honda in the noughties). It's just the cleanest option overall. And if F1 teams are worth so much already (Sauber demanding a $300m price from Andretti) then the $200m entry fee for a new team would actually be reasonable compared to buying an existing team (setup costs are obviously there but it could mean a total $400m to $500m price for a new entry compared to $300m for an existing a lower-mid team, it's actually better value).

[mr_exia]

I'll give a point to Wolff here. Every team had to work hard and make sacrifices to be where they are today. And VW is not like a beginner in motorsport, it's one of the biggest brand with a lot of money.

[alanhillyard]

The Germans have got it right with their workers rights - it’s ridiculous that they are saying that treating employees in the right way is a stumbling block - this should be the industry standard!! It can’t be right that teams based in the U.K. (or wherever else) are allowed to build a culture where employees are expected to work themselves into burnout to keep their jobs, it’s not right

[aydenchurchill]

I would love to see either of them as a team. Seeing porshe or audi on the grid would be Amazing

[stevem]

I would agree that Audi and Porsche both have significant experience building hybrid power plants for race cars and they should not be given preferential treatment just to lure them into F1.

[mikeoneil-work]

I'd love to see VW follow Red Bull's example by starting two teams. Porsche as the main team (Red Bull) and Audi (or Lambo?) as the sister team (Toro Rosso / Alpha Tauri). They could add 4 seats to the grid, and expand the sport. Spreading their investment (though larger) over the two teams could give advantages in development as well as well as marketing. As the worlds largest (or 2nd?) automaker, they have the resources to make it work, and could do wonders to help grow the sport. And if willing to invest on that scale, I'd be F1 management would be willing to bend over backwards to accommodate them.

You could even make a good case for having VW as a Team name, considering their market presence and the potential marketing opportunities for their dealers.

[mikehatch]

Moto GP allows concessions to teams based on performance. It works well in that once a team scores a certain amount of points or wins a race the concessions are removed. Don't forget that Toyota spent over one billion dollars in F1 and were not successful.
The MGU is the big deal for Porsche. They don't want it and declined to join US Indy car for the same reason.. If it is deleted, further development that could benefit all manufactures will cease.

[gartht]

So, how many times have VW stuck a paw into engine regs so far, and how many times have they turned up to race? If they want in, let them do what Honda had to do, and look where they are now.

A Red Bull built engine will be a far better option for RBR and F1 altogether.

[willhiser-doson]

porsche on it's own would be amazing, you can just imagine the liveries. probably replacing haas or becoming the 11th constructor. I just can't imagine porsche (VW)buying into exsiting constructors. imo it's all or nothing for VW.
Also i'm talking about porsche rather than audi because their liveries would be so much better

[ahmedelnokrashi]

Porsche can enter as a team of it's own as they have the motorsport image in their road and race cars
Audi can be used as a sponsor brand (like Aston Martin with rb) and put its name on potential costumers

[andrew]

Every major rule change (2014, 2022, etc.) should be accompanied with a waiver of the $200m fee to attract more teams.

[ajg]

They should focus more on getting more teams in (not buy outs of existing teams) instead of getting new engine manufacturers

[sonang]

Just let VW use more engine upgrades for 1 or 2 season, maybe 7 instead of 5. That would be a fair concession I guess.

[legrosroger]

Ideally, we would get two new teams, but that seems highly unlikely

[davestopforth]

If it was me I'd enter Porsche as a full team and buy 67% into the Red Bull engine program. Then run two parallel engine projects, one side being led by Red Bull, sponsored by Audi, and another under the control of Porsche. After two year's completely separate the Porsche side to prevent any potential Porsche - Red Bull fall outs.

I'd try to bargain some of the entry fee away by arguing that you're helping the sport by working with Red Bull and that you are willing to supply your engine to other teams at a reduced cost for the first three years

[Losthillz]

I’m sad Honda is leaving, they could’ve stayed till 2026. Equally It’s very exciting to have VW potentially entering f1. One day I hope bmw or Toyota returns as well