Non-verbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) and/or Autism?

We're looking at something called non-verbal learning disorder or NVLD (also abbreviated as NLD), and the questions regarding it in the research field. It overlaps significantly with ASD and ADHD, and some argue it's just autism while others say it's a distinct disorder.

References:

[shelbywein]

I was diagnosed with Asperger's and Non Verbal Learning Disorder when I was 13 (I'm 30 now). I consider myself autistic and that's what I tell people, especially since Asperger's has troubling origins and NVLD isn't necessarily recognized as a distinct condition. Having been given both as a child, I feel like they were just trying not to say "Autism" since it was highly stigmatized when I was growing up, and being female, my presentation of it was different than my male autistic peers.

[tmfraser]

Thank you for making a video specifically in NVLD. There are relatively few videos on YouTube about it. I would really love to see another video that focuses more on the experiences of NVLDers. As opposed to questions like "does it exist?* These questions are really done and over with at this point - NVLD does exist! A great resource is: Mammarella et al. (2021) Understanding Nonverbal Learning Disability. Routledge. Irene Mammarella and her colleagues summarize the bull of literature over the last 20-30 years. We've known for quite a while that NVLD demonstrates a different profile with distinct brain differences from ASD. Absolutely, NVLD is a close cousin of ADHD and ASD, but it has its own very distinct traits. (Disclaimer: I am not an NVLDer, but an ADHDer married to an NVLDer, and it has been really neat to learn together in what ways our experiences align and differ. Yay neurodiverse couples!)

To say 'it sounds like ASD but with visuo-spatial differences' might be right, but visuo-spatial differences are a BIG, COMPLEX THING! Much of our lives takes place within the constraints of our visuo-spatial perception! If your perception there differs, it leads to a lot of big differences in your day-to-day experience that other ASDers do not typically experience (I believe).

It means, for example, having challenges judging distance, like how far away a car is when crossing the street? Which straw is the appropriate length for your takeout beverage? How far away is the next step on the stairs, and will you fall when going down stairs unprepared, especially in the dark? Learning math and science is definitely possible, but kids might benefit from more hands-on learning, so that you don't have to rely on visuo-spatial perception as much. It means, sometimes, challenges with proprioception, or your ability to sense movement and location in space, such that picking up socks might make you dizzy; car rides, airplanes, and boats can be really tough. How coordinated are you? And finally, the tough one - can you detect Non-Verbal social cues? This varies among NVLDers, but it's fairly common for folks to have challenges detecting social cues specifically because they use Non-Verbal cues. In contrast, many NVLDers are immensely verbal from a young age and have great talents in this area.

Thanks for your time and effort working on this topic, and I hope you'll do more on it in the future!

[caitlinphillips]

First- Thank you for sharing this in an unbiased way and with solid research.

Second- I'm in the separate diagnosis camp.

a) TL;DR: Because the root cause is different as evidenced by brain scans.

b) Primary Reasoning: Formally adding NVLD to the DSM-5, and naming it something more appropriate, would serve both NVLD and Autistic persons best in the long run.
As an NVLD person whose presentation tends to be in the visual/spatial deficits and ADHD camp, without being ADHD (they scanned my brain), I was privileged to attend a school district where I received appropriate accommodations. Having NVLD accommodations taught me how to create systems that work for me.

c) Additional Context: I've read online, within the autistic community, that some school districts might be using the NVLD diagnosis inappropriately to underserve their autistic students. This makes me understand the urge some have to swiftly usher NVLD into the spectrum. It makes me sad/angry that anybody would be misdiagnosed and given inappropriate accommodations. My hope is that everyone would be able to receive the diagnosis and accommodations that allow them to thrive.

[margaretcapers]

@stephaniebethany note that the NVLD project has stated that in the net year a so that nvld will be reconstructed as " visual spatial developmental disability", which will also be know as the white matter model that is associated with right hemisphere brain damage - let it be known that it will be always be a developmental disability and not an LD alone.

[kewalkhalsa]

Thank you for this well-researched video! I have NVLD, ASD, and ADHD (inattentive presentation.) I got the NVLD & ADHD diagnoses first and later figured out I was on the Spectrum because NVLD has so much overlap with ASD, and I had traits above and beyond NVLD. I think NVLD should be in the DSM VI and it should be under the ASD umbrella.

[mikayladolan]

I'm so glad your looking into this! NVLD should be researched about a lot more. As someone diagnosed with NVLD I've been trying to figure out what the difference between NVLD and autism and ADHD. There are so many similar traits to autism and adhd. I think if there is more research and evidence on the difference of the brain of someone with NVLD compaired to the autism and the atypical brain this would help make a more concrete definition for NVLD. I hope NVLD is researched about more and that we eventually have a concrete definition to add to the DSM5.

[aleon]

I clicked on this so fast...You did an excellent job with a difficult topic I've never seen on a video before. I was dxed with NVLD when I was in my 40s (I'm in my 70s), the dx was from a learning disability specialist. I do have math, visual spatial (very specific to 3d problems, though), etc. I have joked that whether you are dxed with one or the other depends on the specialist you see. I was never dxed as having Aspergers, nor was it ever ruled out either. I think it's part of the spectrum, more in common than trying to sort out whether there is some sort of brain difference (after all, Kanner's syndrome, child disintegrative syndrome, fragile x, angelman syndrome, Aspergers, etc are all considered part of the same spectrum even though very different in lots ways).Compared to the list I gave, NVLD is downright identical. It's a spectrum. If people aren't meeting everyone's needs then they need to work on meeting people's needs. Btw, always consider myself autistic, learning disabilities explains why I am so inept with tools--like saws and hammers.

[catrest]

I have NLD. My official ICD-10 diagnosis is neurodevelopmental disorder with nonverbal deficits. We (NLDers) had all been hoping that NLD would be added to the DSM-V, but no such luck. There is for sure a fine line between NLD and autism, and I have been told that I have "autistic traits". I also scored in the ASD range on the ADOS. I do know some people with both diagnoses. I spent a lot of time on Wrongplanet when I was first diagnosed, and although I generally felt like I fit in there, I also thought that my social and sensory issues were less severe than what aspies/auties were dealing with.

[nicole]

I was diagnosed with this when I start schooling as a kids and yeah it does seem like they just threw it apron me since they knew I had a learning disabilities but did have the ability to give exact name to it since it was the teachers giving it and not a psych doctor. Thank you for doing a video on this :) It is a quite confusing topic, I was even quite confused on why I was given NVLD because most stuff I came across didn't match me except for one that explained that it also had similarities to autism and ADHA. Then I went into seeing if I'm actually autistic which I thought made more sense and made even more sense when I came across other videos of autistic women like you (I'm also very thankful for the videos you make :) Have answers some questions) I actually did get testing last month and the neuropsychologist did say I'm some where on the autism spectrum but interesting said she definitely does not think I'm NVLD. So that does tell that there is doctors who see a different, her reason was because I struggle with reading and writing but not in math and NVLD tend to struggle with reading, writing, and math. There might be more to her reason but that is what she told me. I will be getting my results from the testing next month so I will get more info from what I got at the testing days itself

[peterxxl]

I saw this post late. My diagnosis of NVLD was many years ago, when I was 13 years old; today I am 56. I was "a bit weird" as a small child and felt marginalized. In fact, I didn't understand the children around me at all and especially couldn't handle spontaneous behavior from other children. I could not interpret gestures or facial expressions and did not understand verbal innuendos at all. That and my physical stolidity seem to fit quite well with what was said in this post. In the meantime, I have learned a lot (a theater teacher helped me a lot over a few years), and I can relatively often correctly classify facial expressions and gestures, but I am still completely overwhelmed with spontaneous emotional expressions of other people, which I simply "do not see coming". Oddly enough, however, I can recognize another person's feelings much better when I'm "just" talking to them on the phone, so I don't think people with NVLD diagnosis are not empathic. Interesting post.

[PukuDuckie]

Aaaah, thank you so much for covering this topic! I was super excited to see this in my notifications. I'm hoping the more coverage this topic gets, the more it can add perspective to any potential researchers, as I totally agree with the points, concerns, and questions you've brought up in the video. I'm personally in the camp of thinking nvld is probably different from autism spectrum disorder, but like adhd, is possibly a common comorbidity. However, just because they may be considered "different", it is true that autism, adhd, and nvld are all nerodevelopmental disorders that have similar issues with cognitions and executive function, if anything they all seem linked in some way.
I definitely agree that it's untrue that people with nvld generally desire more connection with other people. I think all people desire social and emotional connection with others, it just comes down to if an individual is exhausted enough to not want to try to connect with people who cannot understand and accept them as they are, if it causes less stress and pain to just be alone. As a person who has been diagnosed by a professional with nvld, I also struggle with the desire to be around others when it seems to cause more difficulty than just being by myself. As you said many times, just because nvld people "tend" to be more verbal, doesn't mean that they do well in social situations. Just because I strive to be a human dictionary doesn't mean I'm good at people, likewise, despite striving to be more like a human thesaurus, my speech in general is still very much disorganized, as well as my thoughts, and need to prepare what I'm going to say before I speak, lest it all come out in a mess of stutters. I'm much better at conveying myself in text and writing than verbally, that may just be me though. I'd also disagree with that report's claim that people with autism have more anxiety than those with nvld, even my own personal diagnosis report says that failure to treat my conditions may cause agoraphobia in the future, which I absolutely have. Anxiety and depression are common results of the failure to treat and alleviate problems with the condition, same as Autism. Mainly the ability to work with your own strengths, being able to accept yourself, and teaching others so that they may better be able to understand and accept you as well. I'd say, just like autism, people with nvld have different difficulties and traits to one another, as well as different personality types and thresholds of stress tolerance. It's kind of like that phrase "If you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum", that can be applied to other conditions as well. :)
Anyway, I think that's probably enough of my babbling for now.
Thank you again for covering this, made my day ♥
I hope all is going well with you, friend, best wishes!

[SweetiePieTweety]

You always bring new good stuff! No idea about this one but it’s interesting for sure! So many similarities and differences amongst the autism, ADHD, C-PTSD, and apparently this🤷‍♀️… and that and that other thing lol.

I do know there are so many diagnostic “labels” that are not diagnostic labels within the education system to avoid labeling anyone with a diagnostic label lol for liability reasons so, ya. And many parents simply will take any set of acronyms to not get the autism label.

[firstlast_x]

Now and in the future this video is very well done. Not much fluff and straight to the points that matters. Thank you

[naesydarb]

I got diagnosed with Nonverbal learning disorder, when I was liked in first grade where it's now making sense to me.

[gonnfishy]

💙💜💛🖤 very well explained. I’m already very familiar with NVLD and the criteria however you have explained it especially pointing out at the start it IS NOT about being “non verbal” it’s about defecits in things OTHER THAN verbal-
I don’t know how many outsiders appreciate that, from the title nvld.
ILU 🦄

I personally identify as half Aspie half NVLD 🙂

[lillyraye]

So I was diagnosed with NVLD at 12 and apparently my presentation was so evident that the guy doing my evaluation ended up doing a case study on me and putting me in his thesis. That being said I have been a headbanger since I was 2 . I would play ode to joy over and over while banging my head on a pillow andstill do. I also have sensory issues. It seems possible to have both. Im sad bc i can't afford an autism assessment bc I connect really strongly with the community also ppl always assume I'm autistic and then I have to correct them and explain the difference to them which is very frustrating bc at the end of the day I end up needing the same accommodations.

[margaretcapers]

still love how i suggested this for you - good job love it <3

[spiral_heart]

I have an NVLD diagnosis and I tend to think it's separate thing because even though I have a lot of spatial troubles I have never noticed that I haver trouble with body language. Also When I listen to people talk about their experience with being on the spectrum I just don't relate aside for the feeling different from other people bit.

[kathrynbriley]

It's a horrible condition. I have suffered my entire life, but God is in charge & he gave this to me, & I rely on Him. I am so glad Chris Rock came forward with his NLVD. At 17 was my Sean song. Diagnosed at 39! Only the Lord got me through this!

[tachysphex]

13:04 I feel like I fit in this category. Since I started going to a psychologist for evaluation I've been watching autistic youtubers and content about autism, just to inform myself, but youtube kept suggesting it so now I'm very deep into this autism rabbit hole. Not that I expected to be diagnosed with autism but as I explored ASD I found that I share a lot in common with these people, except for the stimming and sensory issues. Recently the results came back and the main takeaway was that I very likely have NVLD. I seldom stim, mostly when I'm stressed (also accompanied by echolalia), and I do not have problems with sound, light, or texture. However it seems to me that my senses are amplified in a way (not sight because I have myopia, although I'm great at spotting details and differences); I have not trained my ears and nose much but I can pick up and recognize smells quite decently, when listening to music I can hear minor sound effects, and I often find myself touching stuff that is new to me, even if I don't have to touch it. And for the same reason that I feel that my senses are amplified, I find that things autistic people do like wear headphones and dim lights would absolutely help me cope even though I don't necessarily need them.