Do John Piper and Doug Wilson Obscure Faith Alone? | Theocast

Do John Piper and Doug Wilson Obscure Faith Alone? Here is how we approach this question in today's episode. Every generation has to come to grips with the gospel. The imputation of the righteousness of Christ to sinners--as our whole and only righteousness--has often been under assault in the history of the church. It is in our day in the form of the Federal Vision and the teaching of final justification. Jon and Justin engage with both of these errors today in an effort to clarify and defend the heart of the gospel, which is the righteousness of Christ counted to sinners.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin go into more depth on the Federal Vision and then contend for the importance of confessions of faith, as well as the safety provided by a sound theological framework.

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#federalvision #finaljustification #romecatholic

[razzendahcuben]

You guys are hitting all of the good topics. I feel like this channel was made for me. That recent "Have I repented enough?" was so needed by the soul of this "habitual sinner". Love it. Thank you.

[TheScentedBarber]

I continue to hear The Gospel anew every time I’m hearing you guys! I’m so encouraged by you Men! Thanks for shedding more clarity on The Gospel!

[Albrecht]

Being someone who's just coming out from a more evangelical, speaking in tongues, etc Church and being in limbo trying to find a Reformed Church nearby.. This helped a lot. Not being able to attend Church regularly yet always made me worried about my Salvation. Thank you for this.

[TL-yltp]

Totally agree with brother razzendahcuben here. Definitely a blessing for the body of Christ what theocast is doing all the time, pointing the weary sinner to Christ ;), keep up the great work guys :)

[medicchrist]

Final justification is a straight false gospel. It's an accursed message. Saying that you are initially saved by faith, but finally saved by works, is nothing but a deceptive, dishonest, deceitful way of pushing works salvation. If you are finally saved by works, you are saved by works, period. What good is it to be initially saved by faith, if you are finally saved by works? That is not flirting with Rome. That is the literal soteriology of the Roman Catholic Church. That is a Christless, crossless, bloodless, "gospel", which is not another gospel. It is an accursed message. Galatians 1.

[DanielBShaw]

We persevere in the faith because God keeps us by His grace. We are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time". (1 Peter 1:5)

[MrsSecor]

Yes! Just what I need.

I completely understand why there are these little works-based theologies that pop up. We are so fearful that God isn’t able to preserve and maintain his people and are afraid of people “falling away”.

I especially think of my days as a 90s Calvary chapel (Arminian theology) kid. We were taught once saved always saved, no matter how you act afterward. I feel that Federal Vision is just another method to keep people on the straight and narrow and to provide assurance which everyone desires. Sadly, I see this theology as something that repels people from covenant theology. A lot of people believe that’s what covenant theology is.

[petervik]

Final justification by works is terrible news not good news

[TheMcGloneCode]

I read the federal vision statement and I understood it to proclaim faith alone, but to emphasize that living faith isn’t alone; meaning, living faith (the only faith that God gives) naturally produces good works. Also, good works (and the desire to do them) comes from God, too.

Why is this controversial?

[lindabalko]

Thank you for this podcast! You are both so clear and stand on the truth of Scripture while still being gentle and kind. I so appreciate your ministry. :) Jon and Justin -- I would like it if you would tell us how to address folks who oppose what you taught in this podcast using the following statement below. I have personally heard this argument so many times with statements indicating that they haven't heard or read DW or JP say anything false and until I do, I don't believe he/they are teaching false doctrine.

"If you want to know what Doug thinks about federal vision, justification, or continued growth in the Christian life, the Reformed Basics video series is a great place to go, as his blog.

He denies he’s part of the FV movement and puts himself in the Westminsterian camp. For DW specifically, I think it might be good to examine his language a bit more closely in his blog, or in Reformed Basics videos, to see if he’s matching what you’re criticizing - he’s holding both to covenantal objectivity and traditional evangelical distinctions on the offensiveness of being justified by trusting in Jesus’s merits alone. No doubt he’s been confusing sometimes, but I think identifying him with the federal vision movement or in confusing law and gospel, I think is unwarranted."

[johndodson]

Nice to see you guys defending monergism in sanctification. Keep up the good fight. Speakers like you are rare.

[carmensiekierke]

On a recent "Apologetics Live" Andrew Rappaport ( Striving For Eternity) defended John Piper's "Final Justification." Andrew thinks it's just Piper " nuancing" Jonathan Edwards. After all, that's all John Piper was doing with his " Christian Edwards. Dr. R. Scott Clark has written about Jonathan Edwards' faulty view of justification by faith alone. What's the blind spot with people such as Rappaport?

[Ivo-cm]

You guys are great at lifting the load that so easily creeps onto our backs. Thank you!

[NoahFred]

Why can’t you guys and cross politics link up and debate … welcome Doug into the conversation as well ? Both have big platforms … would be a great debate / discussion.

[priestap]

Somewhat off topic... I keep hearing about Thomism. Can you guys do a show on that? What is the payoff? What is the problem (if any) they believe Aquinas solves for us? In other words, what do they think we've been missing out on? I don't quite get it.

[amauryft]

I am seeking to truly understand this...but I am always running into this: what is being represented is not what I am explicitly and clearly hearing. I have not yet heard from Doug, any where, and I've been trying to find it, believe me, for example: that works have any salvific implication, or that baptism also has that power apart from Regeneration initiated, driven and empowered by God thru faith alone. They talk about the visible vs invisible church differentiation as a parallel to Abraham ( who believed) and his descendants ( who not all believed) but still enjoyed promisses of the covenant to Israel, which were different than salvation itself (invisible church). And than the question on the "living faith" wording...but even than how it is always explained is as a fact that all Faith given by GOD is alive and is followed by works as its natural outworking, not as the reason for salvation or even for "being kept". I have not, ever, in all my search found a comment about works as one "arm" of the faith works salvation system. I am appreciative of the effort but still.. I also have not seeing it manifest into practice or off the cuff commentary as you expect to see of people who HIDE their real intent and belief, I just have not seen it, at least in Doug's work, which is the one I've been "testing"... Blessings.

[nathandingle]

Could you guys please talk about something that's often missing from the foundations of explaining sola anything. To me it often seems like the the red herring in the room, when it should be front and centre....
Union with Christ 😁

Particularly the dual "in" of "in Christ", that is, I in Christ, Christ in me.
I think there's issues to be had when only one of the two is believed.

Blessings

[keitharchie]

There’s a flattening going on in this conversation as well. Specifically of “baptism.” And I suspect the Federal Vision guys are in one sense seeking to be more faithful to historic protestantism. The confessional protestant view is that water baptism causes or initiates, in some unknown mysterious way, God to do a work of grace, i.e. baptism of the Holy Spirit upon the one baptized in water. Faith in this instance is in the doing of the sacrament and/or in what it supposedly initiates. There is a works/grace consequential relationship happening in the flattening of baptism into a “sacrament”. As such the Federal Vision guys are simply being consistent.

[mrhartley]

Doug Wilson makes clear that we’re covenant keepers by faith ie our obedience to the covenantal obligations of the covenant of Grace is something that happens by faith alone. In other words, our sanctification is by faith alone which no orthodox Christian would disagree with.
What Christian would deny that there are covenantal obligations as covenant members. We aren’t justified by faith alone only to live how ever we’dlike. God is working in us both to will and to do for his good pleasure (Ephesians 2:10).
The point of the objectivity of the covenant is that we are able to address all baptized Christians as those who are elect just like the writers of the NT did without trying to know if someone is regenerate or not since that is something only God can know.
Also, there is a distinction to be made in regards to union with Christ. The church is called the body of Christ and the Bible teaches that we are united to the body of Christ in baptism. There is also a union with Christ via the Holy Spirit after regeneration. When FV guys talk about baptism uniting someone to Christ (Romans 6) they’re talking about covenantal union to the body of Christ ie the church.
This is how they make sense of passages like John 15, Romans 11, and 1 Corinthians 10 that talk about being cut off after having been united to Christ because of unbelief.
There is also not a monolithic system from FV guys. Wilson makes the distinction between FV Dark and FV amber ale. Wilson would be an amber ale FV guy and so would I.

[EdwardJOrmsby]

Thank you for clearly preaching the gospel and courageously identifying the error of the Galatians.