We Need To Talk About Amp Plugins (theres a problem)

Get 50% Off The CAGED Course Here:

A few weeks ago, I was on a new years live stream with @Johnnathancordy and he brought up something that I hadn't heard before regarding amp plugins, so in today's stream we're going to figure out how I've been using plugins incorrectly and how to fix it

Check out John Cordy's video on the subject here:

And shoutout to Ed S for putting in the leg work to figure all this out

————————————

MY VIDEO COURSES:

Cowboy Chords Breakout Course

Pentatonic Breakout Course

Fretboard Fundamentals Slide Guitar

Chords and Rhythm Course

Fretboard Fundamentals

The Complete Nashville Number System video course

The Tone Course

[desmondmyers]

This is a huge help thanks Rhett. I got the Plug-in Alliance bundle and was using 1073 styles outboard pre on the front end…kept wondering why some of the plug-in descriptions weren’t quite matching expectations. The ‘clean American’ sounds were gainy as hell lol thanks so much!

[tauvholiik]

Lowering the gain stage on the DI is a great idea, but I recommend recording with 48kb instead of 44.1 which will increase the sample rate dynamics that were present when gain was at full db.

Also, I recommend adding after the amp plugin with a newly invented technology to mimmick speaker dynamics of which all current amp sims as well as impulse responses lack and remain flat. It is Bogren Digital's IRDX Core which was designed to work with any amp sim and impulse response. They are metal producers which discovered how flat heavily distorted plugins lacked analog fidelity of the random movements of the actual speaker cab before it is recorded into the microphone, but this also works with clean guitars and bass as well.

Now someone needs to invent the randomizations of the electrical current itself that modifies the tone from preamp to the amp. Another aspect that might be lost if one turns the guitar volume itself to the low settings that may not simulate into plugins.

[aveklive]

Incredibly useful! I was struggling with this for years! Thank you!

[TheSclay]

Sorry, but this nonsense stuff. Calibrate you ampsim and audio interface, as you've done by consulting the spreadsheet. Then turn up the gain in the AI to just under clipping. Then, measure this increase in gain here from the 0 position on the AI ( use a meter). Then go into you ampsim and turn the gain down by the same amount. Done.

[sub-jec-tiv]

For the plugin part: You can also A/B your clean vs distortion tones in the plugin. Start from no gain (on the plugin’s input) and bring it up gradually while A/Bing clean vs distortion. (You may not need to bring it up much at all depending on plugin.) If the clean tone sounds much quieter, you need to turn up the gain. At the point where the volumes match, stop. That’s the right gain setting for your "amp"

[rocket_appliances]

i'm am furious(ly happy) about how much this just changed my toans. like, i always felt good about it, but it always just felt "close enough." this fixed a lot of eq problems, really tighened up the sound and made it feel real for me. kinda wish i'd known this sooner. *** MOTU M2 input gain at 0. into logic with helix imput boosted to 4.5. ***

[cdeshazo]

exceptional. Thanks so much (to you and Ed)!

[trevor]

This was my background noise while I was working on a painting. Fascinating shit. Great video Rhett!

[tristanavakian]

Great vid addressing something I’ve been wondering about for some time. This is the reason I’ve been struggling with clean and mid gain plugin tones all this time. Reached out to my artist guy at neural and sent him this video. Although I’m sure he has seen it by now. I hope that they issue a general recommendation.

[Krp]

Especially with Line 6 Helix Native I always felt like everything was way too hot, gainwise, no matter what I selected. Guess my intuition wasn't off even if I wasn't sure how to address it. Thanks for this! ❤

[kaceyvibes]

I've been following this and as someone who has been using amp sims for over a decade, as a musician and as a (former) recording/mix engineer, I was like "Are you all NOT setting your input gain on your interface to -12db??". Not being condescending at all, there are times exceptions are necessary and appropriate, but that has been my standard practice since I switched from analog to digital a lifetime ago. I had to do a lot of research and experimentation, because tape functioned so very differently, due to noise floor issue that really don't exist in the digital domain, unless you have a hardware/ground loop/power issue. I honestly think the issue with this in general, is people approaching their input signal like plugging into an amp (understandably) and not like recording a source. Gain staging is a fundamental of recording and mixing that is often and easily overlooked or glazed over in DIY circles. You can always add gain at any point in the (in the box) signal chain before the amp sim, but once you start getting any amount of saturation or clipping, you can never get rid of it by reducing gain further in the signal chain. You can easily put EQ, compression, filters, or even any type of pedal sim in front of the amp plugin to shape the signal and/or push it harder. I fully admit though, that I'm a tinkerer and I do this kind of testing and experiments with absolute everything I do, from music and recording gear, to bread baking recipes.

[TheZenguitarguy]

Is it possible that the difference in eq and gain you are hearing, after setting the input gain correctly, is based on the Mic positions/IR's in the plugin and the way your amp is Mic'd? Thanks for the video and for supporting John. he is a very hard working and talneted guy.

[frankpratte]

Kenny of Reaper Mania talked about this a few years ago. But, he used the recording input on the DAW. That is adjust your audio interface gain to average around -18db and more importantly peaks not above -12db on your input meters. This is in general for all plugins. It seemed with your Apollo was somewhere around that level (-18db) on your DAW meter.
I prefer that approach as you don't have to consider which audio interface you are using.

[kniferideaudio]

When I use amp sims I always gain up my pre for good sig/noise and then i just insert a trim before the amp sim, then I can starve the input really easy. I also almost always reamp my amp sims through a real speaker cab and power amp and record it back in with a mic. I use amp sims to track easilly and get tones from amps I don have, not as a sub for amps I have so it always works better to reamp it.

[MarkFeaGuitar]

Just picked up on this - I use an SSL 2 MK2 and there is a tiny bit of volume difference between the input level I was running (about number 3 on the interface dots) and some slight distortion difference too, for sure - but what I really noticed is how the bottom end changes. When the interface level is basically at zero, all the bottom end goes from where I had it set at no.3

[garethwright]

Great video Rhett. Watching from Northern Ireland

[shinyredguitar]

In retrospect this seems obvious because of the VU levels.... I started trimming back my levels super low because of the VU on the UA board. It always bothered me to set it so low but the the VU is the dead giveaway... but we use the lines for jams, bass & getting a strong transient for edits of the mike amp tracks... I still think my amps/mikes/pres sound way better and warmer... Nice descriptive video and pointers giving & credit to others. Great Job!!!

[rendyandrian]

Ok Rhett. Your explanation and example makes sense from the point of view of someone who owns the real amp. My own condition is I don't have a real amp. I never know how the real amp reacts with or without boost pedal. Does it really matter how close the plugin to real amp if I don't know the real one in the first place ?

There was a time when I always set my interface gain to 0. This was before Ed S video. The result was most hi gain amp plugin that I tried couldn't produce a satisfying chug and lifeless. At the same, every youtuber who demoed that particular plugin sounded awesome. Then I set my interface plugin to 9 o'clock and miraculously most of hi gain plugin got new life and sounded awesome.

After watching this video and Ed's new upcoming video regarding this topic. I'll try what you suggested in this video.

[hammingus]

11:21 I came upon this through John Cordy‘s video like probably most people did. I think that guy Ed S who somewhere under one of John‘s video comments soelled his full name which I can’t remember unfortunately, that guy deserves hughe thanks and much love. I think John in one video even kind of called the whole thing, „the S…-method“ or something (again, can’t remember Ed‘s full name). I love the thought of it becoming kind of the standard term for the method of setting your Amp sims Gain as imho Ed deserves it. Thanks a lot Ed! ❤️

[plecogod]

I have to admit, I set my interface to the factory recommended settings. I never got clean tones I was hoping for, even with the Tone King & Cory Wong plugins, now I know why. Can't wait to test this with higher gain amp plugins as well.