Why Daniel isn't Proof of Prophecy

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Christians often allude to the book of Daniel as an amazing example of the Bible’s ability to prophecy future events. Perhaps the most famous example of this is Daniel’s vision of a statue in chapter 2, which supposedly predicts the rise of Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and perhaps the European nations or the end times one-world government (depending on your denomination). But what does this prophecy actually say, and when did it say it? Join me, as I explore these questions in this response to Dustin of “Hope Through Prophecy.”

Thank you to Dr. Joshua Bowen of Digital Hammurabi for his summary about the dating of the book of Daniel! Please check out his (and Megan Lewis’) channel and books!

Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament Interviews:

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Throws a dart at a dartboard while blindfolded:

"See, I hit that spot on the wall with pinpoint accuracy! 5 feet left of, and four inches below the dartboard was totally where I was aiming!"

LadyDoomsinger

Anyone else notice that at 24:30 he says “modern Europe” but the map he shows still has Yugoslavia? Haha

BennyBattaglia

Daniel (as interpreted by Dustin): Those European countries shall never unite!
*EU has entered the chat*

KaiHenningsen

Thank you so much for asking us to participate!! And thank you for recommending our channel!!

DigitalHammurabi

A Roman scourge was made of leather, tipped with _plumbatae, _ or lead rivets. - no iron involved, Dusty.

To ZOZ's final comment, as AronRa says, gawd works in delirious ways.

owenoulton

I remember loving this book as a Christian, I loved the idea of dreams foretelling the future. Now i look at it and it all seems like a person wanted to live and get in to the good graces of the king so they (Daniel) made up this story for this dream to save their neck.

ghostreyn

I remember having a conversation with someone on the Pheophesy in Daniel chapter 7 that pointed to Vespasian destroying the temple around 70 AD. His whole argument was cherry picking and confirmation bias. Stuff like counting both Roman Dictators and Emporers as "kings" while arbitrarily excluding Consuls in order to get 10 kings. And he also completely ignored the fact that Vespasian only killed 1 previous king, not 3 like in the prophecy in verse 24. Also ignored that he died of natural causes and the kingdom went on just fine, when the prophecy implies either he will be killed or his kingdom will be in verse 26. These people will try to force a square peg into a round hole in order to say that prophecy was fulfilled.

DanDan-ehul

You got to wonder for how long these "End times" are going to last...

OscarSommerbo

I just want to say that the Persian empire was superior to the Neo-Babylonian empire in every conceivable metric. It has a stronger army, controlled more territory, lasted longer, was wealthier, had more religious freedom and cultural autonomy for subject peoples, etc. As a history buff, it makes me furious when apologists try to misconstrue it as being inferior to fit their dumb prophecy.
P.S. He mentioned Herodotus' description of Babylon as proof that it was powerful and wealthy, but that was a description of Babylon UNDER THE PERSIAN EMPIRE, since that's when Herodotus lived

NotagYmra

Wait, doesn't the existence of the EU disprove Justin's assertions? Also if that's "pinpoint accuracy", I'd hate to see Justin's needlework.

Zahaqiel

Dustin and Misterr Butt should make a video together. They each have such an exaggerated way of speaking that even the short clips that Zod used to debunk them would be hilarious.

johngleeman

I was just thinking "it been a while sense I've heard anything from POZ". So happy this popped up today :)

starrystarrynight

Mid 160's BC is one of the best arguments for Daniel. One detail missing here is that at this time the Jews were fighting a guerilla war with a local king who had seized Jerusalem, the Maccabean Rebellion. Many of the ambiguous numbers that no one has ever figured out were probably secret codes. Stories like Daniel in the Lions' den, or the three men surviving the furnace, were intended as inspiration to maintain faith against the enemy. And, setting the story during the Babylonian Captivity, some 400 years earlier, recalls a time when the Jews were suppressed by a conqueror but managed to survive.

This is a much more rational and historically founded explanation than the convoluted theological hair splitting over Daniel's alleged Prophecy.

gmansard

Your videos have really helped in my deconversion, mostly in the way you calmly deconstruct and parse out ideas. I must have watched them all three times over by now. Thanks and keep up the good work.

spitfire

"Daniel... the Persian Army just stormed Babylon!"
'Oh... right... Nebby baby... I prophesy that the Persians will invade Babylon.'
'Yeah.. can I have it a little earlier next time?'

brunozeigerts