Conversations that Matter: 'The Bible's Missing Books?' | Dr. Michael Kruger

Have you ever heard someone argue that the Bible is untrustworthy, inconsistent, and incomplete? How have you responded?

Dr. Michael Kruger joined us on Friday, Feb. 13th, 2015 to engage in a discussion on these matters as we seek to defend the trustworthiness, consistency, and sufficiency of the Word of God.

Conversations that Matter: "The Bible's Missing Books?"
Friday, February 13, 2015
Holy Trinity Presbyterian Church

Please Subscribe

[joelrodriguez]

Amazing! I am also reading his book. I love Prof. Kruger.

[joelcook]

It's always a joy to hear Dr. Kruger's insight on this topic.

[adpreterist]

Professor Kruger is a great theologian and teacher.

[TimothyBukowskiApologist]

Very informative talk from Dr. Kruger!

[__________f]

Absolutely fascinating presentation. Thanks for posting.

[elizabethwhite]

The website Kruger offers michaeljkruger.com is a very well done site and gives us a chance to go deeper into these topics. I agree with other comments: great presentation, easy to understand as presented. Thank you!

[argerm]

My thought is, we wouldn't necessarily be reading any of those other books if some competing version of "Christianity" won out. My thinking is that they would not have had the Divine staying power that the version that won the day had (even with its flaws and controversies). Would the Gnostics have endured the Roman persecutions as heartily as the other groups of Christians? If they didn't have true spiritual life, I highly doubt it.

If Gnostic Christianity won the day it would be just another religion in the pantheon of religions at that time. It probably would have been subsumed by the emperor cult and disappeared entirely.

There is every good reason to believe that what survived was meant by God to survive. The proof is in the fruit. But we may have to wait until the end to see what was really true. But I have to think that the Gospel we have today is the true Gospel - it has life-changing power. The others didn't, and don't.

I think the fact that the writings of these other groups did not survive is testament enough of their ultimate worth. Maybe they were objects of purges, or attempted purges, as were the writings of what we call Scripture today. But for whatever reason, those writings did not survive, or their peculiar beliefs did not make the cut, so to speak.

[TruthHasSpoken]

At 58:00, the man asks a great question, self authenticating vs the reliability of the Church to have said so.

One asks Dr Kruger what his criteria (or "feeling") for self authenticating is? Has he applied it to all the 300+ early Christian writings? And can others, apply the same "self authenticating" criteria consistently come to the same canonical conclusions as him?

In the end, Dr Kruger has created a new way, unheard of in Christianity, to know what is and is not scripture.

He does so to avoid what history shows: that 4th century Catholic Bishops affirmed what is and is not scripture. This includes their declaring 27 NT books, no more, no less out of those 300+ early Christian writings. And mere men can only get this right without error if they were led by the Holy Spirit (to *all truth* as Jesus promised). These same 4th century Catholic men, declared the Old Testament to have 46 books, not 39, and they brought all these writings into Church where they read them at Mass where they presided, believing that the bread and wine became the resurrected body, blood, soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

So one asks Dr. Kruger: how is it that these 4th century Catholic Bishops affirmed 73 books in their bibles? How is it that they all error'd? We're they not 1600 years closer to Jesus Christ than Dr Kruger unable to "self authenticate" what was and was not scripture? Did Jesus Christ lie when he said that he would send the paraclete to lead His Church to all truth or did Christ intend that his Church error for 1, 100 years and needed correction by a Catholic Priest in central Europe to set the truth straight?

[barbhorses]

St Ireneaus also identified the Church founded by the Apostles. He writes:

"The truth is to be found nowhere else but in the Catholic Church, the sole depository of apostolic doctrine. Heresies are of recent formation, and cannot trace their origin up to the apostles.
1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. Revelation 22:17 For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers" (Against Heresies, 3.4.1).

[wjm]

the missing books are the ones prots removed

[DrMeano]

is it possible to get the ppt and paper he was referring to?

[newfound_adventures]

I believe the 66 books are infact scripture. Its because of the testimony of the 66 of the Book of Enoch that I believe Enoch also. Jude quoted directly from Enoch a document proven to of existed hundreds of years before Jude was even born. Jude also calls Enoch " Prophecy ". That's huge. Prophecy means Enoch was inspired not by man but by God.

[Rightlydividing-wxxb]

It is great to hear a textual scholar of the Greek New Testament, the usual is that they leave their actual teachings or doctrines out of their work. We all have as close to the actual AUTOGRAPHS as possible. Infact, the mss we have contain the AUTOGRAPHS in them as the ones copying did not discard text by all accounts.

But, he has a problem as a bible teacher, he believes one is regenerated before even hearing the gospel. 1)His DEFINITION OF SOVEREIGN, which teaches that men do not have the ability to run contrary to the will of God. 2)and MITICULOUS DETERMINISM, which teaches that God decides EVERY SINGLE thought word and action that every person will think say and do, except that God's breathed words teach His doctrines in PLAIN LANGUAGE and REFUTE CALVINISM from Genesis to Revelation. Believing that God decides EVERY SINGLE thought word and action that every person will think say and do, makes God infact, not only the author of SIN, but a SINNER. It also means that NOONE should be concerned about SIN or RIGHTEOUSNESS, for any reason, even the actions of believers, because by their teachings God HAS ALREADY DECIDED EVERY SINGLE PERSON'S DEEDS throughout every single thought, word and deed of their life. There would be no reason to be upset or bothered by any false teaching because people are not acting on their own, it is God working through them according to CALVINISM. They, concerning their 9-NOT 5-POINTS called TULIP, they CANNOT use words like: willing or unwilling; believe or unbeliever; obedient or disobedient or disobedience, etc. Because NOONE can do anything God already caused before anyone was born.

Two clear examples of men with the ability to run contrary to the will of God: 1) Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 where God says that the Jews did something that God not only DID NOT COMMAND, but NEVER EVEN ENTERED HIS MIND. This is NOT OPEN THEISM, this is ABILITY TO CHOOSE TO FOLLOW HIS WILL OR RUN CONTRARY TO IT per the God breathed words called the Bible. God knows everything, including the hearts of men, and what they will do and causes His will, words, to be FULFILLED ACCORDING TO HIS WILL.

2) Jeremiah 18, where God compared the potter with Himself and told Jeremiah that if a Nation turns from their wickedness He will not do what He planned, that is, if he had planned DESTRUCTION. If a nation turns from righteousness to wickedness He will not do what He planned, that is, good. See Jeremiah 18, and Jonah, the complete book, as a clear example of Jeremiah 18.

It is important for teaching congregations textual criticism of the greek new testament, but they also need to know what these Greek Scholars believe as well, which helps them see that these scholars do NOT use this teaching to push their beliefs into the ms transmission.

[barbhorses]

Sounds like protestantism. Each individual gets the Jesus they like all depending on their opinions of scripture.

[AmericanByGrace]

You say a lot that topics are too deep to get into now. I’m watching because I want to know those things. Where can I get deeper??

[chrisbroussard]

26:00ish Yes the books were first century but why did you stop there. Your teacher Bart Erhman went another step and narrowed the books down to decades.

[newfound_adventures]

In Matthew 22 Jesus references a teaching of scriptures concerning marriage in heaven. This teaching is nowhere to be found in the entire Old Testament and according to Jesus these scriptures the Sadducees were unaware of also because they only accepted the Law as canon.The only place I have found this teaching in is the Book of Enoch 15:1-7.
Infact the Book of Enoch cover to cover teaches against the marriage of eternal beings explicitly. Enoch even explains to Azazel the Fallen Watcher ( see Leviticus 16 on Azazel ) why God allowed mankind to marry because they were mortal and not eternal heavenly beings.
No book in existence today fits the description of scriptures which Jesus was referencing outside of Enoch

[ABDULKarim-yftt]

Dear friend give me few minutes to explain my belief

Islam and Jesus and Mary
We muslims are in middle, between the Jews and Christians, when it comes to Jesus and Mary peace be upon them both. Jews speak ill of him and his mother and christians say he is GOD or the son of GOD or GOD him self or one in 3, we muslims with the grace of GOD say , He was the messiah and the messenger of GOD just like the other messengers, Abraham,Moses,Noah ..David and rest of them .They all came with the same message, even though the rules and regulations changed but basic message never changed, Adam being the first prophet and the father of humanity (who was bowed down to by the Angels, (created by light) As respect for Adam not as worship, all of the Angels compiled to this order of Allah except iblees, who said you created me from fire (he was a jinn) and created him(Adam) from clay(the jinn race were created from smoke less fire and were on earth before us and are still present, iblees was, not a fallen angle, jinns are a creation of free will like us .hidden from human eyes and are able to transform in to humans and animals and also able to fly, Allah will judge them just like us and their destination either physical paradise or physical hell fire after physical resurrection, ) and Muhammad peace be upon him being the last prophet and messenger. all of them called to the worship of One GOD, peace be upon them all.

ALLAH (jews and Christians in middle east have been calling GOD, Allah(which is his original Name) for centuries, even the present day bible in arabic says Allah as GOD'

Allah has no likeness to his creation, his names and attributes are all perfect, He is above his creation, above his throne (The Throne is bigger than the universe and more) in a way which befits him, He is alone,
like it is said in the bible, listen oh Israel the Lord is our GOD The Lord is alone .In the Quran Allah says

, ,Say He is Allah the ONE, Allah the eternal, He does not beget and He is not begotten and there is no one like him . Quran chapter 112

The Prophets and Messengers before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, were send to a particular community of people, Moses to his people, Noah to his people and Jesus to the children of Israel

Jesus said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

but the last Prophet and Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and all the Prophets)
Allah send him to all of the mankind until day of judgment

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all Quran chapter 7.158. Prophet Muhammad is also Prophesied in the bible
Well then, who are you?" they asked. "Are you Elijah?" "No, " he replied. "Are you the Prophet we are expecting?" "No." Join 1, 21

According to this the Jews were waiting for a Prophet who is not John the Baptist peace be upon him and John the Baptist is also confirming that there is a another Prophet which is not The Messiah, so read Isaiah 29-12

And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this, ” he says, “I cannot read.”
This Prophecy is for no other than Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. It has been narrated in

Sahih al-Bukhari 3—The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet added, "Then the angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.'" ...

Quran is the only word of GOD preserved in its original form, it has dozens of miracles, including scientific and historical, like the big bang, expansion of the universe, every living thing is created from water , embryology in details, black holes, mountains as pegs, different types of clouds, water circle, Queen bee, genders in plants, Iron not from earth rather send down, ants speaking to each other, the preservation of the body of pharaoh as sign from Allah for the oppressors and much much more , just type Islam and science and the above mentioned things in internet, u tube and be surprised .May Allah guide the christians they can't prove the authenticity of the 4 gospels, which were written 70-90 years after jesus , mark and Luke never met Jesus, the title according to mathew was added in the second century and the gospel of John was written the last after 70 years of Jesus, yet John suppose to be the beloved.
Don't forget in the council of Nicaea 325 years after Jesus, the emperor and bishops rejected all those Gospels which mentioned That Jesus was the Messenger and the Messiah NOT the Son of GOD. Even authors of the revised standard version bible comprising of 50 scholars has declared that the word BEGOTTEN and trinity in John as
FABRICATION and not part of the bible.
Islam does not allow any intermediates between Allah and his creation. One is ordered to worship ALLAH directly seeking His help and forgiveness, All sins will be forgiven by Allah (GOD )with the exception of The sin association partners with Allah, e.g. saying Jesus is GOD Or son of GOD, in this case eternity in hell fire (I pray all those who read this, that Allah opens their hearts to Islam

As for Mary she is considers the woman of all times so much so that there is a whole chapter in the Quran in her name called soora muryam
GOD say in soora Aal-e-Imran َا3, 42
And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds,
O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."
(And mention] when the angels said, Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].in 3:46ّ
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.in 3, 47
She said, "My Lord, (Allah, GOD)how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be, ' and it is.َّ
And in Quran, chapter 3-59 GOD says
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be, " and he was.
Jesus Not crucified
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.4, 157
Jesus will declare his innocence in front of Allah (GOD) on the day of judgment Al-Ma'idah 5:116
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Al-Ma'idah 5:117ٌ
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. Al-Ma'idah 5:118
, we muslims also believe in the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him
Jesus will return to kill the false messiah (dajal) and rule on earth as a just ruler and command the human beings to worship ALLAH alone, just like what He did when He was on earth for the first time
I pray all of you out there, who seek nearness to Allah (GOD), that He guides you to Islam and showers his mercy on you,
As Allah said to prophet Moses, my mercy encompasses every thing (Quran chapter, 7)Ameen pease

[Nudnik]

There are hundreds of variant versions of Christian Bibles none match each other or the original koine Greek NT Papyrus or the Hebrew Tanakh Bible or Dead sea scrolls or the Septuagint...
There are 35, 000 different Christian sects today.