The Aryan Invasion Debate: State Of The Art

In this podcast, Dr. Koenraad Elst and Shrikant Talageri get together as Dr. Elst makes a presentation on the Aryan Invasion Theory debate and the multiple claims that are made inside that camp. They also answer multiple questions in the end about the patron-client relationship, guest-host relationship, and whether they were unique to Rigvedic societies.

Follow Them:
Twitter: @Koenraad_Elst

#AryanInvasion #OutOfIndia #AryanMigration
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00:00:00 - intro
00:02:01 - Presentation starts
00:03:18 - Aryan Invasion vs Aryan Migration
00:05:00 - Indo European language family
00:07:14 - Linguistics is flawed?
00:11:08 - Discovery of IE
00:14:22 - Language Families
00:18:13 - Out of India Theory
00:21:04 - Birth of IE Scholarship
00:22:33 - Effect of Archaeological findings on linguistics
00:25:23 - Malayo Polynesian connection
00:28:55 - Homeland shifts westwards
00:33:00 - In defense of OIT
00:37:57 - Aryan Invasion Theory
00:40:14 - August Schleicher's works
00:44:15 - Linguistic Area
00:45:30 - Neogrammarians
00:46:59 - Fernand de Saussure's works
00:52:00 - Linguistic Evidence
00:55:56 - Rigveda's Influence and Loanwords
01:00:49 - What evidence would change your mind ?
01:02:20 - Proto Munda
01:08:20 - Linguistic Paleontology
01:13:06 - The elephant and Linguistic Paleontology
01:18:00 - Isoglosses
01:24:28 - Sanskrit Linguistics
01:27:30 - Accepting Linguistics
01:30:03 - Conclusion and QnA

[drona]

OHH Keonrad Elst aur Srikant Talageri EK SAAth!! This is gonna be the mother of interesting talks!! good one Kushal broo!!!

[xBook]

Srikant sir’s lectures are so dense you need to watch it 3-4 times.

[DiatomAlgae]

Shri Shrikant Talageri should be nominated for Padma Shree, he certainly deserves it.

His work will be reviewed at the highest level in the government, this may help secure official support.

[kastaway]

Shrikanth Sir, thank you so much!!! We are all indebted to you!!! One day everyone will know the greatness of your work.

[AnkurPandeyef]

Kushal thank you for doing this. Though I must accept that I echo the sentiment of others in the comment section here, asking for a true debate: where all sides of the subjects can be addressed through various perspectives.
Maybe this one presents the case of OIT, would be awesome if you could get people who hold the opposite viewpoint next, and then eventually both opposing sides can come and talk togather.

[drona]

PHENOMINAL Talk and Discussion !! Amazing, should be watched by all Indians

[sagarm]

Kushal, thanks for organizing this session.

[lll]

Out of India theroy makes more sense then AMT. Even in rig vedas they talks about battle of 10kings were king named sudas wins and rest clans fled towards West after their loss.
Alina - hellena - Hellas (Greeks)
Pars hawa - paras - Persia (Iran)
And such 8 other Kings who started their own kingdom later and so we share lot of similar Gods and their stories with ancient Greeks, zoraster and 8 other clans

[anantharamanmr]

Thanks Kushal! As always, this forum brings out the best of minds in the Indic space to debunk age old narratives and bring forth the most plausible truth. In that category, this podcast becomes another jewel to keep and preserve for all proponents of Indic civilisational heritage.

[bhuvaneshs.k]

Nyc .. can we have Niraj Rai on the show to talk about Genetics angle to the Indian history

[sanchayansarkar]

I hope the Indus Valley language is deciphered. That will put a fitting end to this debate once and for all.

[smoky]

People talking about that razib must have invited for counter points .
First have to understand that Razib is a geneticist not a linguist or historian.
If u want a debate than it should happen between Neeraj Rai and Razib .
In this case debate must happen between Miachel Witzel or Tony Joseph against Shrikant Talegiri or Koenrad Elst.

[Enlightened]

great work, this great educational video

[agileshkramachandran]

Sir can you upload a pdf sort of thing of this presentation, that'd be very helpful.

[metalgodmaiden]

Kushal, could ask Konrad to give some context before explaining each slide. He just starts explaining his point but should lay out what the AIT position is and in context to that what his position is. That way we can understand exactly what aspect of the whole picture is being addressed.

[luvsuneja]

Those were the days when even Europeans were Sanghis defending OIT.

[sakshatkarandikar]

Indo Aryan migration might have happened because we found steppe ancestry in our genes but they must have assimilated into our culture.

[Samyu_N]

Some people say "Aryan and Dravidian race is a complete hoax", but the whole world knows that India have two distinct major linguistic group namely Indo-Aryan [Indo-European] and Dravidian Language group, namely Sanskrit and Tamil. Even though the word Dravidian coined only in later days, since it is used to represent a Distinct linguistic group. We say it as Aryan and Dravidian races namely Aryans and Ancient Tamils. NO ONE CAN DENY this fact, so "Aryan and Dravidian race is NOT a hoax"

In recent decades, the idea of an Aryan migration into India has been disputed only by Indian scholars, who claim Indigenous Aryans scenarios [Only because they do NOT want to be identified as OUTSIDERS to India]. However, these alternate scenarios are rooted in traditional and religious views on Indian history and identity and are universally rejected in mainstream scholars. Iranians are the original Aryans who invaded India from the west, this what we call it as ARYAN Invasion / Migration.

The country Name Iran itself means "Land of the Aryans" and Iranshahr. The very close relation between Iranian and Indo-Aryan groups has never been doubted. They share linguistic features to such a degree that Indo-Iranian is generally described as a distinct subgroup of Indo-European. The term Arya has been used by the Iranian people, as well as by the rulers and emperors of Iran, from the time of the Avesta.

The well-attested Indo-Iranian languages are Vedic Sanskrit, Avestan and Old Persian. Sanskrit and Avestan are very closely related languages with exact grammatical principles and numerous cognates [Blood Relative]. You can find words which are exactly identical, like Sanskrit/Avestan naman (name), ushtra (camel) etc.

The list of Vedic Sanskrit gods are - Indra, Varuna, Mitra, Soma, Rudra, Vishnu & Agni.
The list of Mittani [Syria] gods are - Indra, Varuna, Mitra and Nasatyas (Ashvins)

This proves that Vedic Sanskrit gods are similar to that of Mittani [Syria] gods. And Mittani language being older than Sanskrit proves that Rigveda originated in Syria / Iran and then moved to India.

Language, literature, epics & poems evolves every century. In Vedic/Hindu literature, Asuras (Ahuras) are bad guys while Devas are heroes. In Zoroastrian/Persian literature, Ahuras (Asuras) are heroes while Daevas are the villains.

When the Vedic Aryans moved further, they arrived in the Indian subcontinent they were faced by the native Dravidians, Dravidians that got conquered were placed as low caste in Vedic Aryan society. The Vedic Aryans continued to call the enemy as “Asuras", but the description of the Asuras changed to Dravidians (i e. present day south-Indians) with dark skin, large facial hair etc.

This is another proof for Rigveda evolving in Syria / Iran [Persia] and moved to Indian sub-continent. Initially Asuras (Ahuras) were referring to Zoroastrian/Persian and in later days Asuras were used to refer Dravidians.

We have all the proofs for Aryan invasion in Rig Veda itself. Dasyus were the people who lived in India when the Aryans arrived here. They were having a dark-skin and flat noses. Battles depicted in the R̥gveda are directly referring to Aryans migrating into India which is native land of dark skinned people Dravidians. Rig Veda - Dasa: 54 hymns and 63 verses and Dasyus: 65 hymns, 80 verses. The accounts of conflict between the Aryans and the Dasas and Dasyus are acknowledged in Rig Veda.

Rig Veda describes that Dasas and Dasyus were people who do not perform sacrifices. Aryans had to fight with these people for land. The Aryans defeated them and did not treat them well. The Aryan chief who overpowered Dasyus were called dasyuhatya (slaughter of the dasyus) this is repeatedly mentioned in the Rig Veda.

Read the following to know more on this same subject

Aryan by Birth – Upper Caste Fair Skin NORTH Indian (Brahmin, Kshatriyas & Vaisyas)
Dravidian by Birth – Lower caste Dark Skin Sudras & Paraiahs / Panchamas (Dalits / Tribes)

It is a very common and well known fact that across the globe White people feel that they are superior and enslave black people. That is the case in Africa and America too. Even in India even though we Indians had very old civilization then the British. The British people who came here for TRADE enslaved Indians. Same thing happened in Ancient India. Even though Dravidians had a OLDER Civilization, Aryans made them as Sudhras claiming white people are superior and black people are inferior.

People living in Indian Sub-continent who are ALL fair in complexion have mostly Steppe land R1A1 genes in their DNA these people are basically Aryan. More than caste it is the Skin color which decides whether someone is Aryan or Dravidians. People living in Indian Sub-continent who are Dark in complexion have mostly South Asian Hunter Gatherer genes in their DNA these people are Dravidian [Tamils] basically.

Tamils means all Sudras & Paraiahs / Panchamas (Dalits / Tribes) lived/living across Indian sub - continent. Even today, you can see dark skinned and pale dark-skinned people living across India in all places, they were all Tamils only in ancient India. "Justice H N Nagamohan Das Commission panel" says, Indian Vedic philosophy lead to social inequality and caste system, All these happened because of Brahmins, Upanishads, Manusrmiti, and epics like Mahabharata and Ramayana...” the commission said in its July 2020 report, which the BJP government formally accepted.

The panel report also says that people belonging to Dravidian race resided in North India once upon a time. “Many foreign invaders such as ARYANS, Persians, Greeks, Huns, Turks, Mongolians, Europeans etc came and fought against local people. The rulers who won the war developed relations with local women and consequently emerged mixed races”

About Kasthriyas, who ever had the courage and willpower they conquered the land [Still it is very difficult for a Sudhra to achieve this], for them even if they are from lower caste, Brhamins did NOT had any choice. So, Brahmins accepted who ever won the war as Kasthriyas except Muslim. Kasthriya Kings always married fair and good looking girls mostly. So, Kasthriyas community have a mix of Upper caste and lower caste DNAs in them.

The ancient text Manusmriti designate the Shudra as Peasants and Artisans i.e., Farmers and All Craftsman, Shudra is NOT to mean slaves.

Read the following facts about DNA Studies.

Why R1A1 DNA originates in EUROPE, but not in India. why it is it not found or too less in percentage among South Indian people ?

Why M haplogroups DNA is not found in Upper caste Aryans or North Indians ? If found why so less ?

If you have read Vedas there are lots and lots of mention about Horses, then why HORSES are not native to INDIA ?

If Aryans lived in India 5, 000 years back means, then why there were NO Horse seals in Harappan IVC sites ?

Why copper hoard culture found only with Aryans, but not with Dravidians ?

Why antenna swords found in Sinauli - India which belongs to BMAC - Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex ?

Haplo M is found among 60% of modern day Indians. It is in every person from south. But here’s the main catch ! It’s only found in depressed classes of northern and tribal peoples of northern India. But, almost to zero to 1-4% among Higher caste Aryans or North Indians.

Just like R1A1 not found in south in the same way south’s M groups are not found among R1A1 peoples of north.

So, it is proved beyond doubt that "ALL upper caste Fair Skin North Indians are ALL ARYANS, and all lower caste Dark Skin Sudras & Paraiahs / Panchamas (Dalits / Tribes) are all Dravidians"

[srinivasansundararaghavan]

Srikant ji should not look for judgement or approval from unbiased experts but go on publishing his findings. Also speak to Govt to get his findings into Indian school text books.

[Har-rs]

Mercator projection has had a huge physiological impact on the world