Anti-Vax or Anti-Facts? | Sci Guys Podcast #29

Do vaccines cause autism? That’s just one of the questions we’re debating this week. We get into the scientific roots of the Antivax movement, and figure out whether it’s really that dangerous to choose to leave a child unvaccinated.

Whether you believe in vaccinations or not, there’s something for you in this episode. Have a listen, and hopefully you’ll learn something about both sides of this debate.

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[stormagedon]

I put off listening to this because I find, as an autistic person, that a lot of the time people don't address the inherent implications that if vaccines are bad because they cause autism then that means that autism is also bad, to the point that dying is better. I'm really glad that I was wrong. The amount of research you seem to put into these never fails to impress me and it feels like you really took autistic peoples perspective into account something which is unfortunately lacking even when talking about autism. Thank you for taking the time to make this episode comfortable for autistic people to listen to, you didn't necessarily have to do that but it really does make a difference to how we can enjoy and engage with the subject.

[abby-hzxe]

In terms of an increase in rates of autism, not only are diagnosis methods more accurate but we are also living in a world which is more triggering for people with autism who may be light or noise sensitive compared to 100 years ago

[morbius]

I was diagnosed autistic last year at 17. I realise that I must have had my MMR when all this was in the papers circa 2003. My parents have told me about the fear at the time, but I'm proud they didn't cave into the pressure.

It strikes me that anti-vaccination beliefs are driven by fear of autism. I think the way to push back is to fight for autism acceptance. My hope is we can eventually dismantle this fear.

[poppyfletcher]

I was diagnosed as a 10-year-old and it took a very long time to be diagnosed, as my symptoms were mainly what we liked to call masking techniques that I had picked up from neurotypicals. I think what anti-vaxxers don't understand is autism is a spectrum condition that is from your brain makeup and so it is very hard for a vaccine to literally change brain chemistry.

[dan]

Never heard autism explained so well by non-autistics 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[MI-dlzj]

I avoided this specific episode for a long time because I like you guys but most YouTubers get everything regarding autism wrong and I'm autistic so I thought I might find it offensive and I didn't wanted this to change the way I perceive you guys (based on previous experience) you were all very respectful and I love that you did your research and admitted you don't really understand it. Thank you for being so responsible, respectful and ethical guys.

[jasminema]

when I posted on FB about my youngest being diagnosed with autism....one person said "I'm sorry" and I was thinking why?? my child isnt dying he doesn't have a terminal illness...sure raising a child with autism isnt easy (he also has ADHD) but he is alive and is fully vaccinated

[lilycrawford]

Brilliant podcast, made me so much more aware on the reasons behind antivaxer mindsets and informed me on what I am actually being given in a vaccine. 10/10 podcast.

[lemon-tqzg]

when i was younger i had to wait 2 years until i could get the mmr vaccine and my mom asked every one if they have their children vaccinated cause i was at risk and one of her friends didn’t vaccinate her children and she straight up dropped her

[morbius]

I think it's interesting that the question even gets asked: what causes autism? No one asks: what causes someone to be neurotypical? There's an inherent value judgement, that autistic people are somehow broken or unacceptable.

[phoenixdaniels]

What hurts me most, as an autistic person, about the whole not vaccinating your kids because they think vaccines can cause autism is that you would rather your kids die of diseases like polio than have your child be autistic? I may be bias but autism is nowhere near as bad as loosing your life. I am happy with being autistic, if I had the choice I wouldn't change that I had autism. Being autistic isn't some awful thing that ruins your life. It can make things harder sure but we know nothing different. Your kids wouldn't be mad that you vaccinated them and they developed autism even if it did cause it (which it doesn't).

[bethanygibbons]

It's great to see a discussion about autism approached so sensitively. I really enjoyed this podcast. As someone who has worked with numerous folk with ASC (and has an austistic brother), I found this really refreshing. Thank you so much for mentioning autistic girls/women/those who mask - I think that alone would be a brilliant podcast. To anyone who may be interested, I recommend reading Carly's Voice - it's a book written by a (predominantly) non-verbal autistic woman who spent many years being seen as someone who had very limited cognitive ability. She gives a really good insight into the condition and is incredibly inspiring.

[xstarkidx]

It's important to note that the autism spectrum is more of a color wheel rather than a linear spectrum. It's not just "slight" and "severe". Every autistic person has their own personal challenges and benefits. Some are better at things than others. (I was diagnosed at age 19 but there were lots of signs, just nobody noticed that I wasnt just a weird kid.)

[phoenixember]

It's not that we can't read social cues (for me, at least). It takes me a while of knowing someone to learn that specific person's social cues. When I get to that point, it's very easy and I notice some cues from that person that other people don't.

[violag]

I love everything about this episode, it aged so well 🤌 I worked at a public charter school in California for 5 yrs where the majority of the students are completely or partially unvaccinated. It was super eye opening to be forced to interact with that demographic and learn first hand that most of the parents were trying to keep their kid safe in the best way they knew how. Multiple students had negative reactions to vaccines (some medically documented in their student files and some just assumed by the parent). The majority of these parents didn't believe in any of the autism conspiracy they were just afraid of their kid getting more sick, having more strokes, losing more physical mobility, etc. Of course there was also a weird crossover of the super conservative Christian parents that didn't let their kids get vaccines because they don't trust the government but also won't talk to anyone who works at public school about it because we're "working for the government."

I think a lot of people come to the conclusion of not allowing vaccinated kids in public school because of what yall said, but it's important to remember that the unvaccinated children are *victims* in this situation and are at the mercy of their parents decisions. At least in the US, children have no autonomy to choose to get vaccinations until they're an adult (18). Think about what those unvaccinated kids are getting set up with if you don't allow them in public schooling- being homeschooled means their parents are the only ones who decide what they learn and what is shown to the children as proof. If those parents have massive and thorough conspiracy theories about the government, or at least a (possibly rational from their perspective) fear of medical establishments coupled with rejection from the rest of society, including public schools, because of that fear, how accurate of information do you think that child will be raised with? Do you think that kid will ever be given access to correct scientific information about vaccines? If so, will they have the same kind of mentality that their parents do, where they shut down all logic because of fear? How well-informed do you think they will be by the time they are an adult and entering society, maybe even having their own kids? We've GOTTA give kids access to information, even if that means a scaled back version of public school, for example partially online and only one day a week on campus....idk something that isn't just "sorry kid, your parents decided to not vaccinate you so now you get no access to education or free lunches, hopefully your parents will be able to provide those things".

[abby-hzxe]

Amazing, well researched podcast. Loved it

[anniefaye]

It'd be really amazing to see you guys further discuss the differences in autism in males and autism in females and why females are often left undiagnosed or diagnosed late in life.

[nathancha]

I honestly appreciate it so heckin much how wholesome you guys are. All about this deconstructing toxic masculinity and being respectful in language about neurodivergence. Thank u so much for that ❤️❤️❤️

[AnimilesYT]

As an autistic person I think the discussion should change. Even if vaccines cause autism that doesn't mean that it is not worth the risk of having an unvaccinated child. Hardly anyone knows what autism actually is. The common knowledge is that we're people who have poor social skills. But that's just a small part of autism which not every autistic person has. Over or undersensitivity is also a big part of autism. The most problems people face with autistic people is that they have to deal with an untreated traumatized person. If you raise an autistic person well then you won't have many issues. If you don't raise them well then they'll end up very traumatized (I speak from personal experience) and it will be very difficult for you.

So once people know what autism actually is then they wouldn't want to risk their child dying from one of those diseases even if it could cause autism. And it would prevent a lot of trauma for autistic people at the same time

[molono]

Ever since I discovered Jammidodger I realized how much I actually love to learn. I'm an auditorial learner and this stuff is really fascinating. I love videos on the science behind Lgbtq people and other things that go on in the brain. I also feel incredibly uneducated for my age and would love to fix that. My vocabulary isn't good for my age but idk how to fix that and I'd much rather learn about these things. Thank you.