A CCG that lasts forever without new cards? (Story of 'Codex')

The customizable card game genre is awesome. Usually, it relies on a constant new stream of cards to stay interesting. It's extremely difficult to make this style of game work if you commit to not having new cards forever. I've been thinking about how to pull that off for almost 20 years. I eventually made a game to explore this idea. Learn about how that went and what's next.

0:00 Intro
0:30 Endless new cards
1:42 Other genres don't struggle
3:23 An idea I regret
6:07 A better idea
10:27 The result: Codex
11:18 New Codex!
12:35 Like and Subscribe

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[JeffreyQProductions]

I play Codex every other week with a friend. We have been doing this for about two years. The variety is incredible and we both love the game. It fixes all the issues I had with Magic and he prefers Codex over Magic as someone who played Magic for years and years. Looking forward to what you have in the pipe with Codex and more content coming out about your refined version of 1.5 version or whatever you're going to call it.

[jeremyfernandez]

Got my first deck of Alpha MTG in 1993. Ive played a lot of Magic. A lot. Codex fixes a lot of shortfalls, and shines on the fun factor and gameplay. Codex is my favorite out there. I play it with 10-55 year olds. Keep going Sirlin.

[Omniraptorr]

the idea that sirlin regrets actually sounds a bit like the game mindbug- it has a very simplified mtg-like creature combat system, but every player gets two mindbugs, which are basically counterspells that let you take control of the creature your opponent is trying to play. the mindbugs feel like they add 50-70% of the complexity to the game and it would be quite dull without them.

[marmosetfreund]

The only card game I need in my library. It is just fantastic, no regrets on the ALL IN kickstarter years ago.

[DekuLord]

So happy to hear there's a new Codex on the way. I absolutely loved the original it was so well crafted and contained that whenever I would think about taking inspiration from it I would innevitably consider whatever I came up with in my head just "worse Codex".

[Zac-Hansen]

Codex is is very close to my all time favorite card dueling game and very close to one of my all time favorite games ever.

I cant wait to see what you do with it.

[sinach]

Game design is a fascinating topic, and Sirlin explores and explains it brilliantly. He also makes fantastic games and everyone should buy his shit.

[AlexMTG_]

This video gives me new appreciation for my delux copy of Codex, time to wipe off the dust! Side note - thanks for designing Master of Predicaments, The Celestial Toymaker's best friend!

[TheOrian]

The first idea that came to mind when you asked for something that would add options without making play painful, was having several decks to draw from. Meaning it increases your options but the choice complexity only appears when you have to draw something, and keeping complexity in most of the game the same, with more variation due to the decks.

[johnfanjoy]

On the topic of games being too complex. At an event for the short-lived WotC game "Dreamblade, " two of the top players in the game had a match for funsies in the hotel lobby the night before the main tournament. About a dozen other top players gathered around to watch.

As the two players thought about what moves to take for their second turns of the game, a discussion broke out among the observers of what moves would be best. And every observer had a different idea of what play would be best, with valid reasoning. One of the game designers was present, and was heard to say "I think I may have made this game too complex."

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Fun watch! I've really enjoyed the dynamic of the original Codex; having to pre-empt your opponent's tech choices was an incredibly fresh aspect of the game, and I really enjoyed the difficult decision of when to tech up to 2. Very excited to know that there's a further iteration being worked on.

[suka]

I love codex, although I don’t get to play it as often as I would like.

Some years ago my friends and I took an impromptu trip to gencon.
During the day at some point we split up for a bit I was on my own. I walked by your booth and saw codex and they were doing demos so I sat down to play. It was awesome. I actually stayed there for a while just playing with one of the guys at the booth. At some point my friends found me and were kind of annoyed I was there for so long but I was having a great time. I ended up leaving with the base game. Some time after that I picked up the other sets to complete the game but I do regret not jumping on the deluxe version that day at gencon.

[byeguyssry]

8:00 The sideboard idea makes me think about a possible spin of existing card games, where you could introduce a gimmick of FORCING you to switch out an exact amount of cards after each game. So perhaps you have 50 cards in your deck and a 50 card sideboard and after game 1, you are forced to remove exactly 20 cards from your deck which cannot be added back in subsequent games, and add in 20 cards. Or maybe all the cards in the graveyard and exile must be removed, which would add a lot of meta-gaming as you care about the quality of your wins

[buckcherry]

I am just getting into Codex (yeah, probably going to WAY OVERPAY for a deluxe edition in a few days here). I am super surprised to see a 6mo old video on the game from the dev. 0_0

[DennisCNolasco]

Fantastic, just found your channel David! Been a fan of your games and also have your Playing to Win book. I always recommend that book to anyone :)

[ilqrd.]

I just hope we get the new on KS so I can order the big box!

[pktzer]

The "regrettable" idea reminds me of Mage Knight. The new player experience was... not great in my case. Spend 30 minutes trying to figure out the absolute most optimal play you can possibly do - and congratulations, you just moved 2 spaces on the map. Maybe next turn you'll get to punch some orcs or whatever.

It's definitely a unique style, but I'd probably enjoy it more if it wasn't so brutally hard to do even the simplest things.

[Laezar]

sorta unrelated but the mental stack thing is one reason I really dislike playing games like crusader kings where there is so much you can act on it ends up becoming really difficult to figure out what you should care about or not and ultimately a lot of system become irrelevant simply because you decide you don't have the mental bandwidth to deal with them.
Games being more complex doesn't mean you make more interesting decisions because if you give up on making some decisions you might aswell not have the ability to.

And obviously it creates a massive barrier to entry too as more experienced player are able to handle more of those small things, not necessarily because they're making deep decision about it either but simply they have learned good heuristics where they turn those knob to somewhere that's good enough that they don't have to think about it much but still gives them a massive advantage. Kinda like having a few strong build older in an RTS, you don't actually make super deep decisions about what build order you're going for but if you didn't learn one you will have so much options it's hard to do anything vaguely decent.

For me some games can feel less strategic when they give too many decision point.

[CK-vify]

I'm a huge fan of your games David. I own the deluxe edition of Codex and everything for Yomi.

I'm looking forward to buying Yomi 2.0 when the physical version comes, out and the new Codex version as well.

Please keep making your games!

[hty]

The fact its gonna take years for the new CODEX to come out....Thank God I still have the original CODEX Deluxe Edition. :)