You Don't Need to Do Zazen

[EvanBerry.]

I feel that maybe the fact that you don't need to do zazen is what makes it so valuable when you do.

[macdougdoug]

My Roshi doesn't turn up late, he appears magically spouting poetic wisdumb

[george]

I used to think of you as a garage band guy who won't grow up. Now I am struck by how much you remind me of a daoist known as liehzi. I really like reading translations of him by eva Wong. So, I appreciate your quiet passion and your humility, it feels like liehzi.

[pers]

10:34-10:43, lol, made my day Brad, thanks!

[gojuglen]

Weather you practice Zazen or not, we are not separate from the world and each other. Zazen can help us see this over time. Which is nice. Instead of always been pulled around by or judging thoughts. But whatever experience we have, delusional or awakened, it’s all a dream within a dream and is gone in a flash!

Alan Watts talks in his Zen book about how he couldn't find any references to daily zazen practice in the old texts. His conclusion was that you should meditate spontaneously when you feel like it. I always wondered how he came to such a different conclusion than most zennists.

[windrag]

One interpretation of Kobun Chino's "you don't have to do it" might be along these lines: if you look around the world at any given moment, there is no one that is forcing another person to do zazen. If one is ordained as a monk in the Zen tradition, one's community and/or teacher might exercise peer pressure to compel a person to do zazen as a function of their station. But generally, if one is sitting zazen, that action is completely a result of one's own choice. In this sense, the act of practicing zazen is total liberation from the expectation of the world. One doesn't "have to do it, " but one does it as a result of all of their choices leading them to the moment of practice.

[kevinmeercat]

Its a training, like going to the gym or to school. True, you dont have to train, but things are better if you do.

[blorkpovud]

...
Actually...
I think that fan metaphor is perfect.
I'm sold.

[bxvzky]

Thanks, I haven't heard about Bankei. Sounds like an interesting Master!

Zazen - what a stupid thing to do, I love that 😀

[astounded]

There are many practices to cultivate inner silence. Just as there are many compulsive habits to trigger monkey mind. There are also many unique individuals on the path to enlightenment. Maybe they have a proclivity towards a certain practice. The practice has value so long as it’s diligently pursued.

[Teller]

Zazen is not a 'doing'...its an absence of doing.
Just like silence is an absence of sound, and darkness is an absence of light.

So nobody is doing zazen.
But this not-doing requires physical preparation...strength and flexibility to become effortless.

[rainel.]

Zazen is good tool as a physical reminder of the what we are doing. When mind wanders of to tv you can clearly see that you are not on couch with remote in hand but sitting in zazen.😑

[pajamawilliams]

it's not that bankei was for or against zazen, but that he thought one should maintain a zazen-like state of mind at all times. to him if one wanted to do zazen, they should. he thought it was absurd to make a special time for contacting the unborn only while sitting, and that one should manifest it at all times - obviating the need for special practice. he didn't require his students to do or not do zazen, nor to wake up at a certain time or do anything in particular. his students did in fact practice zazen, but he didn't enforce it. in fact, his awakening was the result of ruining his health with incredibly rigorous zazen practice, which probably had an influence on why he taught this particular message. he was also very strict in other ways. it's all about context. he wouldn't let anyone who hadn't completely grasped his teaching teach it. he did have a single dharma heir, but that dharma heir died unexpectedly. two good books on Bankei are "Bankei Zen" by Peter Haskel and "the Unborn" translated by Norman Waddell

[saralawlor]

Thank you for this great talk. I always do zazen even though I sometimes wonder why.
I was just thinking about Eckhart Tolle who seemed to wake up through deep suffering. I don’t think he did zazen but I feel we are lucky to have the practice 🙏😅

[MrDesoto]

"Not doing" is the activity or non activity of Zazen. You don't have to do it.

[mbt]

I think if you know the experience of zazen, you want to experience it all the time because it is the experience of enlightenment.

[ThePathOfZen]

Zen and Zazen (Meditation) have become synonymous in the West. Of course, one can go down the rabbit hole on the origins of 'Zazen' and understand that Institutional Zazen and religious/spiritual zazen are two vastly different things.

Institutional Zazen is what the Japanese monastic has been teaching to prepare young minds for a life of Duty and Tradition. Keep in mind, that these young boys are going to inherit, or be appointed, to a family temple in which that is a career.

Chinese Zen (Ch'an) does does not speak of 'Zazen' and denies that any posture that one assumes is holy or will make one holy. This of course is what you see in Indian/Bhrama religions of the mudras, postures, colors, scents and sounds.

Religious Zazen is more of an attunement to Buddha-nature. This particular practice does not have any form (posture, mudra, or place). In this, one is free-form and not bonded to Tradition and Duty. This is what a lot of the old Ch'an Masters where getting at with many of the young monks who wondered why nothing was happening with all the Traditional and Duty there where engaging in.

Most on the r/zen group on Reddit are well-educated and have institutional training and experience. To just brush them off casually is a massive mistake.

[kmichael]

An example is Tom. Tom is already Tom. But Jerry asked does Tom need to do Zazen to be Tom? The obvious answer would be of course not.

We all are already Buddha nature so we don’t need to do anything to gain Buddha nature.
But Buddha nature is veiled over by our mistaken identity (ignorance) that we are the body (5 senses) and mind (6th sense). So that we ignore who we truly are. Therefore we need Zazen to have this realization to uncover our Buddha nature.
So it depends on who’s asking the question. For beginners who is seeking the way, then the answer is yes, you do need Zazen.
For the ones who already got a glimpse of who they truly are. They realized that they are not the mind or the body. But is the Awareness (Buddha nature) of the body and mind. Then no, they don’t need it. Since you already are it, what is the point of keeping on seeking? You can still do Zazen if you enjoy it. But doing Zazen to be or to gain Buddha nature is incorrect. Doing Zazen to realize you own true nature or Buddha nature that already you is correct.
So just depends on who asking. Are they asking to gain? Or to realize? Both question looks similar to each other but require quiet a different answer!

[denisdemiantsev]

I don't need to do zazen! I can quit any time!