Sacred vs Secular: The Battle over The Traditional Latin Mass

A new film sheds light on the divide in the Catholic church between traditionalists who desire the right to practise the Latin Mass and progressives who see the old rite as an outdated relic. With the Pope’s health in question, many are contemplating what the future holds for the Tridentine Mass. Francis is known in traditional communities for his implementation of restrictions on the mass through Traditionis Custodes. Now, many are asking what will happen to the Latin Mass after his death. Will the pontiff's successor continue the restrictions, or be more flexible on its practice? This documentary explores the deeply held convictions behind the headlines and the theological debates fuelling the divide.

Produced & Presented by @elliothartleyuk

[briandelaney]

The form of the TLM predates Trent by several hundred years. It was just standardized at Trent

[knightsrepose]

I'm a convert from Protestantism in 2023. Did 2 years of RCIA at a NOM Parish church. I was on my way to rejecting the church (and probably going Orthodox) but providentialy discovered the TLM and did a year Catechesis with the FSSP.

[jcoon]

UGH! Please stop saying it is simply an attachment. There is substance to the The Mass; whereas, attachment is accidental. We do not desire The Mass because it pleases us, rather because it pleases God. The Faith can never be seen as a relic. It must be faithfully handed down and faithfully received generation by generation, undefiled. That is the meaning of Sacred Tradition.

[DrKBoogieWoogie]

Obedience yes, but obdience should be at the service of Truth. When Catholic Truth is split from Catholic Obedience you have problems. Such is the case today.

[RossArlenTieken]

Some comments:
1. Pope Francis has not "unequivocally" pushed the Church in a progressive direction. The progressive/conservative divide is a political and not a theological one. In theology and liturgy, a more appropriate distinction is modernist/traditional or "Spirit of Vatican II"/Tridentine.
2. Traditional Catholics aren't fighting for "their right" to celebrate the Immemorial Rite. They are fighting political moves on behalf of the pope that seek to limit what theologically, cannot be limited. It is about the Rite, not anyone's "rights".
3. We don't really care what the language is (well, a little, aesthetically and practically) we care about the FORM of the Rite, which was in basics unchanged for more than a thousand years, and then was radically changed by committee and promulgated quickly and sloppily.
4. Pope John XXIII did NOT decide that the Church needed to "Change with" the times. He decided that the intense challenges of the time needed a collective Catholic response, to better minister to the needs of the people.
5. SOME bishops thought that the Church needed to "change" (and they got in control of key positions). The majority of bishops knew that something needed to happen, but were completely against the modern world and knew that the Church needed to RESPOND.
6. "Vatican II was about inclusivity and the vernacular"... NO it was not. You have not read a single VII document if you can say that. Vernacular Masses weren't even discussed by VII, only by the committee on the new liturgy. Gregorian Chant was to be given absolute pride of place, with OCCASIONAL instances of other forms of music--but not contemporary. This is an absolute factual error, and should be corrected.
7. "despite such affection..." Man, this isn't about 'affection', it's about REVERENCE. We don't "like it", it's not a "matter of taste", it is objectively better. That's the argument, get it right.
8. We're not "traditionalists", though that's the way we've been labeled. We're just Catholic, and take it very seriously. We are "in the world, not of the world".
9. The Latin Mass is not uncertain. It is the Immemorial Rite. It has no boundaries. It simply is the Mass. It's not a "relic", nor is it simply around for its aesthetic and historical importance. It is the MASS. It's what makes us Catholic.

[deirdrecarney]

I just came back to the Church last year after an adult life as a very liberal agnostic who practiced Buddhism and so on, and once I was back into the Catholic fold I found myself gravitating heavily towards the Latin Mass and traditional Catholicism. I feel like THAT was what was missing from my childhood Catholicism which was all Novus Ordo and weak tea in comparison. Young people are longing for something that ties them deeply to their history, to their ancestors, to their cultural community. Everything is so watered down in general in modern life. We don't need fast food, pop Catholicism, we crave the fine dining or home-cooked version, whatever metaphor you prefer.

[jacksoncastelino]

Praying for the Restoration of Traditional Latin Mass from India

[liammccann]

The Old Rite includes Latin, Greek & Hebrew - the three languages nailed to the instrument of our salvation. In hoc signo vinces +

[Lexarfrk]

Christ is king. Traditional Seminaries and Monasteries are packed with courageous, orthodox, and faithful men and women. Pray for many holy religious vocations. Salve Maria.

[richardmalcolm]

I hate to say it, but as a Latin Mass attendee, I actually think this could have benefited from interviewing a figure who supports the restrictions of Traditionis Custodes on the traditional rite. One is left with no sense of just what the case against it is, and this in turn makes it harder to engage supporters with that case, either.

[joelwren]

I’ve been attending the Traditional Latin Mass for about four years.
I could never go back to the Novus Ordo Mass.
Once you’ve seen it, you cannot unsee it

[Ray_of_Light]

Ave Maria,
Gratia plena,
Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
Et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus.
Sancta Maria,
Mater Dei,
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
Nunc,
Et in hora mortis nostrae.
Amen.

[Mar--Mar]

It's not traditional Catholicism, it's just Catholicism. Catholicism is traditional by nature. The point of reference for Catholicism should be Tradition, and not the shifting panorama of never-ending novelties.

[Jared-ryqg]

My church has Latin Mass Everyday I did not no I was so privileged, and a full Latin choir it is the most beautiful experience to go to church multiple times a week with so many devoted Catholics.

[jackpatrick]

It was delightful to listen to these young, from my perspective, TLM attendees. Please save the Church through this respectful Mass. Bring a friend along too.

[gregorymikula]

Most Catholics are under the impression that the only difference between the novus ordo Mass instituted in 1969 and the Traditional Roman Rite is the language (Latin) in which it is celebrated and that Traditional Catholics are nostalgically "attached" to Latin. The Traditional Roman Rite is a different order of Mass altogether. That it is celebrated in Latin is only one of the many differences between the two Masses. It is important to note that the Traditional Latin Mass movement is the ONLY sector of the Roman Catholic Church undergoing explosive growth...especially among the young.

[mcjgsk]

Using Vaticanum Secundum as an argument against the Old Rite is nonsense (unless one is using the infamous and, most of all, ambiguous “spirit of the Vaticanum Secundum”). Let us (the Church) go back to what Vaticanum Secundum really said about the Mass. Vaticanum Secundum said explicitly (in its Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy „Sacrosanctum Concilium”) that the language of the Mass is, and should be, Latin and that Gregorian chant, polyphony and traditional hymns are the music of the Mass. Vaticanum Secundum neither invented the new Mass, nor called for it (it was done a few years after the Council in defiance to some of its wishes).

[esterbaque]

If we have to go undergrown will go, but will never leave our Latin Mass. Good video.

[elliothartleyuk]

Thank you for watching this film! I've been working on this on and off for the last year, and hope you enjoy the final product!

[gerardbrady]

I think any understanding of the traditional rite of Mass has to begin with a statement about what the Mass actually is. The Mass is "...the sacrament that perpetuates the sacrifice of the Cross, in which Christ's immolated and glorified body and blood are really, truly, and substantially offered, present, contained, and received under the appearances of bread and wine". The sacrifice of the Mass and the sacrifice of the Cross are one and the same sacrifice. The solemnity of musical creations of famous composers down the centuries as well as the chant codified by St. Gregory lend the traditional rite an atmosphere appropriate to the reality of the action occurring on the altar. The other major difference between the novus and vetus ordo is the fact that the latter is a rite properly speaking where the NO very often is not. The priest in the new rite is encouraged to choose different options and I have certainly attended Masses where the celebrant has extemporised the liturgy up to and sometimes including the eucharistic canon. Abuses in the NO are legion and the celebrations are very often poor, as is the music chosen, due to the idea that everybody has to be able to sing along. As a veteran of the liturgy wars it seems quite obvious to me that the outcome of the struggle will be won in the pews. Finally I would say that there is no such thing as a liberal or progressive or traditional Catholic. There is merely Catholic and as the traditional rites encapsulate the Tradition of the Church, one of the three pillars of the Church's teaching (with Scripture and the Magisterium) it seems inevitable that those who wish to feed their Catholic Faith will gravitate towards it.