What Is Justifying Grace? | Order of Salvation (Charles Gutenson)

What is justifying grace? Dr. Chuck Gutenson here discusses this ever important aspect of the order of salvation.

[Godsglory]

Yes sir that is correct, and that is exactly what Wesley taught. This was what he called the prevenient grace of God. If it wasn't for God's grace we would all still be bound in depravity, this is what Wesley taught. John Wesley strongly affirmed Ephesians 2:8-9, he was indeed a protestant, but then we must remember that salvation is always accompanied by many good works for Christ, that what Ephesians 2:10 is all about.

[ThinkingBiblically]

This is not the Gospel. The Gospel is about what God has done in Christ to save sinners. We are saved by faith in Christ and what He accomplished on our behalf on the cross, not by what we do or our righteousness. That is why the Gospel is Good News.

[CXa-ze]

First, there is not one verse of Scripture that he provides anywhere in this video to back-up what he is saying here unless I completely missed something. And in 3 videos, there are only two verses provided (a verse in Philippians 2 and John 1, neither of which focus on salvation. John 1 deals in this verse with the light being to judge, not to provide restoration of our faculties.

Second, he says that in this portion of "salvation", (yes, quotes as this is absolutely not Biblical salvation in any way shape or form) people are "becoming righteous" This flies completely in the face of the beautiful double imputation of Christ (our sins placed on Christ and His righteousness "given" to us. Um, I'm pretty sure, ok, so 100% certain that we were not given more and more of His perfect righteousness over time (which is what "becoming" means). We receive that righteousness in full, once and for all!

Third, did you notice that if we put these first three types of "saving grace" together (prevenient, convicting, and justifying "grace") acording to these teachings on seedbed, we are being taught a works-based salvation? It is all about what we need to do to be saved and not about what the Scriptures say regarding what it is that the Triune God does in our salvation (we don't do anything, it is all of the work of the Triune God).

Fourth, did you notice that frequently in this and the prior two videos, he keeps saying things like so he could protect God from the idea of how he explains Calvin's beliefs (which by the way are not understood by this guy correctly nor to my awareness were they understood by Wesley clearly). Over and over in these videos, I keep hearing how Wesley needs to protect God from those things that he understood Calvin to be teaching. I don't think God needs to be protected against anything!!

Fifth, did you notice how almost everything regarding our being saved in these first parts of "saving grace" (perhaps with the exception of the very beginning of prevenient grace) is all about what man does and not what God does. He even talks about our works being combined with faith in this video which is counter to faith through grace ALONE. This is another example of faith plus works according to what is being taught.

sixth, I am curious how he explains that we are able to make a decision to repent of our sins when we still have a worldly heart and spirit (John 3:3-6). Likewise, why would anyone with a heart of stone want to repent to God before their heart has been changed. They would not as the Bible clearly tells us in the above verses as well as in other places such as Ephesians 2:2-3 and Romans 3:10-12).

seventh, he claims that prevenient grace (yes, a prior part of this teaching) happens very early, and he even speculates it may take place as early as conception. First, this goes completely against Psalm 51:4-5 and second, if this is true, then what this means is that there are a whole bunch of newborns who have things like a good conscience (another video from seedbed teaches that restoring the faculties of prevenient grace means things like our conscience, our thinking...). If this is true, how many babies then do you know who are restored in their faculties. I know of no newborn who is able to think clearly and logically and who has a good or neutral conscience. Most newborns are selfish and don't care, it is all about me. Nope, not a restored faculty!!

I will gladly take the real, Biblical, truths of Salvation over this. We are all sinners, none is good, no not one (no restored faculties) (Romans 3:10-12), we were all dead in our trespasses and sins (Psalm 51, Romans 3, Romans 5), and we could not do anything until God first chose us (Romans 8-9) we had a new heart and spirit given to us (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3-6), and our eyes were opened by God (John 3:3-6). John 6:33-45) makes this really clear!! And the beauty of it all is that double imputation God took all of the sins of His Sheep, placed them on His beloved Son, punished Him for them, and then through His grace, transfered (imputed) the righteousness of Christ and gave it to His Children so that every time we sin in this life, God will look upon us and see the full (not becoming) righteousness of Christ since that sin had already been paid for and declare us not guilty. I find it so sad and appalling that these videos reduce the beauty of what Christ did and make it all about ME MYSELF and I. this is not grace at all, it is works and it is not Biblical and he doesnt' even provide any support for grace at all in any of these three videos!! Please, do not believe this false grace, otherwise, anyone with a heart of stone and a spirit of this world better get to work on repenting before God will change your heart!! Yep, this theology teaches that with hearts of stone, and with a spirit that is being driven by the prince of the air (satan: see Ephesians 2:2-3) people somehow, because their faculties have been made neutral, can repent to God and desire doing so. Please, if you believe this theology, do not take my word for it, and instead of just following things like seedbed as your guide, simply read John, Hebrews, Ephesians, and Romans in full and ask yourself what it is that the Bible is actually teaching and if it supports this form of grace at all. Then, take Wesley's single verse John 1:9 and put it into the full context of that chapter and ask yourself, if Wesley had never said so, would you have ever gotten prevenient grace from this verse and does the FULL context actually lead to this conclusion?

By the way, Weslians will regularly argue that belief MUST come before regeneration (the giving of a new heart and spirit) takes place (which the Bible actually counters over and over if you let it speak for itself and take the Scriptures as they are written). They will then argue that "belief" is not a good work. If you are a believer of this teaching, then check out John 6:29 in pretty much any translation. What does it teach about what the definition of "belief" is? If you put this verse into context, the context it is part of is talking about salvation.

[DebbieDurham-mc]

Why did you stop talking about GRACE and move to justification? Your other teachings centered on God's work, grace. But this time, you had so little to say about how grace continues at moment of belief. Our group went way off track in the discussion because of it.

[lanemorrison]

Sounds like John Wesley just watered down salvation a bit more than John Calvin did from Roman Catholicism.