What Is Sanctifying Grace? | Order of Salvation (Charles Gutenson)

Here Dr. Chuck Gutenson discusses the last grace in the order of salvation—sanctifying grace.

[brotherjim]

Wow. So many avenues traveled in just the few minutes of this video. I so adore these encapsulated Seedbed overviews. Thank you, Jesus.

1) the work of sanctification is BOTH instantaneous and progressive. I'm amazed but saddened that it seems the Lord waited until the very end of this dispensation, assuming it so timewise, to unveil the full revelation of this.

Sanctification is the process whereby the reborn Christian can come back to the foot of the Cross, back to the Rock upon which they can throw themselves again broken, again and again and again and.... Each time it is a person's response to again be convicted of an impurity remaining in the heart, given the steps of Grace for its removal, then a holy replacement instantaneously given in its stead which brings the recipient one step closer to the full image/persona of Christ Jesus. Given enough years, there are a half dozen or more such mountaintop experiences to be had by those born from Above.

2) Jesus was given the Spirit "without measure." While discussed in detail in my tweets, abbreviated here is postulated the assertion that God's Spirit is manifested in numerous forms, lower case "spirits." What traditional Wesleyanism believes is entire sanctification, is actually the Christian instantaneously receiving the S(s)pirit of Agape'/Holy Love, but such is "just" one of many further degrees of God available. And even IT, Agape', is not perfected, that requiring yet more Grace, such as being delivered from our love of the world (which cannot coexist with a Love for God).

3) true, the teaching of sanctification is "thin" (quoting the video), but can we really expect those who have not yet obtained it, to preach that it is further needed and ordained of God? That would require a huge displacing of ego, etc. (Some overcome this by stating most who do, receive entire sanctification on their deathbed.)

4) also discussed in a tweet where I addressed the 2023 Asbury outpouring, we need to stop passing the buck of a needed revival to younger generations. It's intended to start with "US."

[CXa-ze]

If you accept what this guy is saying, let me ask you a question.

First, let us remember a couple of things that are part of this teaching, along with common Wesleyan teaching in general:

a) the four types of "grace" (prevenient, convicting, justifying, and sanctifying) all deal heavily with the idea of ensuring we have free will. In fact, if you saw the prevenient grace video from this guy in this series, he says that prevenient grace was John Wesley's way of "rescuing" free will from the concept of predestination which is directly discussed multiple times in the Bible.

b) Many Wesleyans hold to the concept of libertairian free will within these four types of "grace" which means that God will not at all intervene in a person's choice to believe or not believe to ensure that the decision truly is mans choice and thus absolutely NOT God's choice.

So here is the question:
If the two above statements are true, what happens when a baby in or out of the womb dies?

Some thoughts on the answer:

1) You can not argue that this is where the "conditional" concept he taught comes into play since he made it very clear that that has to do with our "working" to maintain our faith and not the initial saving.

2) He argues that conception (the point where life begins in the womb) is when prevenient grace comes into play, making our faculties neutral. If this is true, then a baby who is in the womb and is just 1 millisecond old can choose to believe and God will not intervene in that choice so as to not violate that millisecond old's absolute free will.

3) If you try to argue that no, 2 above is not at all true and instead it is the case that babies in the womb and newborn babys are simply given salvation if they die (so all who die in infancy or in the womb are saved) based on what he is teaching about this theology, then you have a God who is VIOLATING the absolute free will of babies and forcing them into heaven even if they didn't actually want to go (see Romans 3:10-12) and thus treating them unfairly by not letting them decide for themselves.

4) If both 2 and 3 are wrong, then it must be that after babies die, God then gives them minds to be able to make that choice so that they can maintain their absolute free will and so that God will not VIOLATE their free will by intervening. In such a case, after death is when these individuals decide. Where does this happen, in the grave, does God take them to heaven and then kick them out if they say know (and if they are taken to heaven, does this then mean that until they decide, they as unbelievers are technically in heaven)? If this is the case, prove it to everyone who reads this post by pointing out where it is taught in the Bible in a clear enough way to support this idea with a firm foundation!

5) If God, according to this theology, decides to VIOLATE his declaration that He will ABSOLUTELY NOT intervene in the choice to believe, then for all of those who had full, long lives, contributed to society (which is what a large part of convicting grace is according to the guy in the video), but who died as non-believers, we should all morn that they sadly lived that long full life and did not die before they were born or as infants because then they would have been saved. This brings up a related question, if God saved all of those who die in infancy or before birth, then why not just save everyone instead of God's only intervening and ensuring that those who die in infancy or before birth will be given eternal life, but for everyone else, there is no guarantee of that wonderful salvation. This doesn't sound like love to me and seems like something that would break the hearts of family members who had to watch someone die an older unbeliever.

SO this theology, based on the above options fits one of the following:

-It has no way of being consistent as some are promised eternal life and this god does intervene while for others he refuses to intervene (meaning that sometimes he follows what He says while other times he violates this; which goes against His proclaimed unchanging nature). Also, free will is only for those who don't die by the end of infancy (those that die in infancy and before birth have no free will in their decision).

-It is unfair as it ensures that those that do not die during infancy or before birth and who do not make a deathbed confession are not promised salvation without having to make a decision (which babies don't need to do) and work their hearts out to be saved (a.k.a., sanctifying grace: which those who make deathbed confessions do not need to do).

-It is truly evil and wicked!

Please, dear reader, I urge you to check out the Bible as a whole (so not just the two verses this guy provided for a whole major doctrine to be built upon) and see what it professes about grace!! What this man is teaching, I promise you is truly not good news!! It means work (as said in another post; check out what John 6:29 says about believing being a work) for all except for infance, the pre-born, and deathbed believers! I am so incredibly grateful for the real and FULL Good News that the Inspired Word of God teaches.

By the way, as an aside, did you know that Wesley did not believe that the entire Bible is necessarily accurate. This means that a book, that if you believe it is truly inspired buy God, has errors that God allowed to be in it and then called His Own. SO why would Wesley want to say that there could be errors in the Bible, so that he could hold onto his precious free will of man. By accepting that the Bible is fully inspired and inerran, he would have to argue that God has portions of the Bible where He absolutely refused to allow man that free will that Wesley held so extremely tightly to and that was so important to him that he rejected things that are directly stated in the Bible such as predestination and was willing to wage a bet on an entire doctrine built on a single verse simply to not let go of that free will. Believe it or not, the determination to hold so tightly to the view that man must be spared his free will even with the writing of parts (but not all) of Scripture and thus the Bible must be allowed to have errors has caused people to ask the question of, "if God wanted to ensure free will and thus allowed there to be errors, then how do we not know that such errors even exist in the salvation portions of Scripture, and if that is the case, then how do we know the Bible is true at all" which has caused them to reject their faith. It would seem to me that if God gave us His Word to help us truly know who He is, what it took for salvation to be accomplished, and as much about His Creation as He wanted to tell us while we are on this earth, then wouldn't it make sense that He inspired every word of it? Or, were there parts that He really just didn't care that much about. As can be seen, when free will becomes more important than the Sovereignty of god and His Will for man, then there is inconsistency, unfairness, the potential to cause faith to be shattered, and/or for such a god to be wicked or purely evil!

[Scotts.Christianity.Teaching]

I'll help you out.
I finished this video. And I'm like Arminian and believe people can fail salvation from this scripture I found Galatians 5:19-21 that when sinning that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians was Paul's teachings, proves it can fail eternal salvation. Grandpa believed he couldn't go to Hell, and Arminians believe he could.
I'm against suicide. I was depressed also to suicidal. I almost did suicide as a 5-Point Calvinist. And these scriptures got me more hope.
I became more Arminian now from these scriptures I posted on here. I believe people can fail salvation.

Loving God is wanting to be useful for him much. What if a person could do that much of his time? And I enjoy working from this. People who enjoy working. When it's more likely to be boring to non-Christians.

Mark 9:33-35
New American Standard Bible 1995
33 They came to Capernaum; and when He [a]was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and *said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, [b]he shall be last of all and servant of all.”
.
This is for Christian world domination. Why to raise kids Christians. God Son Jesus said similarly to whoever is useful the most is the best merited of the apostles. Useful merit for eternal rewards and competition with other Christians. With God Son Lord Jesus Christ faith teaching, people will want to be useful for the kingdom of Heaven, which usefulness happens on Earth and if any other place. We need to help this world as much as we can!
This text could motivate, supposed to be Christian people, to do all types of usefulness. Chores, volunteering, grade school, high school, college, and work. Good people, this world needs them.

[pedrogilmaroliveira]

Please can someone send me this video with subtitles in Portuguese (Por favor, alguém pode me enviar este vídeo com legenda em português )

[shifttransformations]

If it's by works, it's no longer grace, the Bible says.

[shifttransformations]

When does Jesus ask us to transform the world? The Bible says the world is going to be burnt up. We are warned to have nothing to do with the world or the things in it. A new heaven and new earth is coming and not by us transforming it sir.

[CXa-ze]

First, at the beginning of this video, he says that justifying grace (the prior video's focus) is where the "serious" work begins. Um, so is repentance (what is part of "convicting grace") not very serious? The Bible counters this idea heavily!! Be very careful here if you are listening to this. when you meet Christ at the end of time, and believe what the guy in this video says about repentance, you will have to stand before the LORD and say that was not a very serious part of salvation. This is an entirely unbiblical and wicked teaching!! It may seem like a really insignificant idea since it is just a one sentence statement, but it is a critical statement that is something the Bible teaches is critical (our repenting). Also, did you notice how the guy in the video says "work" when he talks about the types of grace (listen clostely to the sentence mentioned in the above statement, he explicitly says "work". Grace is not of "work" on our This is a works-based theology, though its supporters will argue fervently that it is not! The video proves salvation to be faith plus works! Where does the Bible say "first type of grace" and "second type of grace". Chapter and verse please!! How does this empowerment work and where is it found in the Bible, again, chapter and verse please! You know, I think it is so interesting how all of his arguments in all the videos where this comes up, seem to make the statement that all of what we are doing is for other people. In other words, it is focused on how we begin to treat our neighbor... and how we change in those types of areas. This is true, but what this man utterly, completely, and totally ignores and unless I missed it makes absolutely no comments on how we will change in terms of our focus on, love for, desire toward, and devotion to God Himself. God is actually never mentioned during these times with respect to how we are to be changed in the ways we act. The first and gratest commandment isn't to love our neighbor with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, rather it is to love God in all of these ways. Loving our neighbor is the second gratest commandment. Thus, we are to put God first in terms of whom we love... not our neighbor. This teaching is putting man and his needs ahead of God! He says that Wesley believed that salvation is not of works but in faith in Christ and Him alone. Although this sounds pretty and is a real part of orthodox Christianity, what he says and what he believes are actually two different things as noted earlier. He may say salvation is not of works and faith, but all three of the prior videos tell a completely different story and support the works plus faith idea. This is just pretty language to make it sound like Biblical Christianity, it is not, it is works-centered, man- rather than God-centered, and all about ME MYSELF and I. I don't think the cross of Christ, the blood of Christ, the death and punishment of Christ, or the resurrection of Christ were mentioned one time in any of these videos! Someone please point out how these are the very heart of Wesley's doctrine of "salvation", they are not even discussed in any of these videos even one time that I can recall! If I am wrong, please very kindly point this out! I would love to see where he points out that these are the heart of our salvation! This is also likely why repentance is not considered to be part of the "serious" work of salvation as was mentioned above. If you don't start with Christ, but instead start with man, repentance becomes a less-serious or less-important thing as he so perfectly demonstrates in this video. According to what this guy is teaching about the conditional works of salvation, what this means is that those of you who are believers out there who hold to this theology, you better be working your heart out as God requires that of you to hold onto your salvation!! This is a wicked and evil teaching!! It truly places an incredible burden and weight on the believer who wants to know and have confidence in their salvation and be assured! This is the Roman Catholic teaching of needing to do works to maintain our salvation and makes the amazing grace of Christ toward sinners deserving of hell not so good news as it is only if you work hard enough after that gift is given to you will you keep it. God speaks no where about this idea in His beautiful Word. As I have said before, sir, I want a chapter and This is truly wicked and appalling teaching that takes away from the beauty that is salvation and the free gift that we have been given. Where does the Bible talk about "social holiness". Chapter and verse please!! As another commenter so wonderfully mentioned, where are we called to transform the world, we are not! This world is going to have an end and will get darker and darker until that time comes! Maranatha Lord Jesus! As with the prior video, there is not one single verse, as someone else also noticed, that this guy provides to support any of this. So we have 2 single verses to support the entire process of being saved according to this guy. So let me see, what we have learned from these videos, is that what Wesley believes about our salvation (again, with only two single verses in this entire series) is the following: -Prevenient grace happens at conception (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -The reason prevenient grace was invented was to "rescue" free will. -Wesley doesn't like the idea that God can only doo good and man can only naturally do evil. -God will overpower negative effects of sin "just enough" (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -Convicting grace is works based (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -Convicting grace places the second gratest commandment before the first (to love neighbor is the primary focus and ahead of loving God). -We somehow must repent and believe while we stil have a stone heart and a spirit driven by the prince of the air (satan) (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -There is no talk about when/how our heart of stone is removed and how God gives us a new heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3-6). Likewise, there is no talk about where in his saving process this happens. -There is no discussion of our eyes being truly opened to see the heavenly things (see John 3). -This is all about ME MYSELF and I. Works are part of this (see John 6:26 about the definition of believing). -Repenting is not one of the more serious parts of salvation (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -With respect to Wesley's "justifying grace" we are becoming righteous, which goes against the imputation of Christ's righteousness (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -Wesley's "sanctifying grace "requires works" plus faith unless you die as soon as you profess your faith; so it is faith alone BUT with works too, but just faith alone (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video, and no Biblical evidence for the two conditional requirements of works was provided either). -For those who die too quickly to do works or for whatever other reason can't do them, it is faith in Christ alone, not faith in the grace of Christ alone. SO there are just four solas (faith, Christ, the Scripture, glory of God, oh, wait, nothing was said in any of these videos about how our salvation glorifies God, so it is just three solas). -Unless you keep working, you will not be able to maintain your salvation, so you will get kicked out of this theoretical gracious house. What amazingly "good news", um, not so much!! -There is a first type of grace and a second type of grace (no Biblical evidence provided by the guy in the video). -The cross; the blood; God's wrath; the fact that when we are sinning, we are doing so against God (Psalm 51:4); the death of Christ; the resurrection of Christ; God's being glorified in all things; the love of God; the justice of God; what our sins deserve (eternal death); God's faithfulness; Christ's perfect obedience in living a sinless life to pay for our sins; and the sacrifice necesary to pay for each and every sin (all extremely important to our salvation) are never once discussed in any of the four videos unless I totally missed them.

*Honestly, this "grace" doesn't seem very gracious, it seems like work, all about us, not God, and glorifies man and his ability to be saved not God in our salvation! This is truly wicked, evil, and unbiblical.

[shifttransformations]

Again, sir, not a single Bible. Verse is support what you're saying. And now you're preaching a work's base salvation. The Bible is blazingly clear that it is not by works or the will of man. Give some scripture to support you're philosophical viewpoints derived from a carnal man, not inspired, man..