A Continued Response to Gavin Ortlund on Baptism in the Church Fathers

In this video, I continue my response to Gavin Orlund's recent video discussing the doctrine of baptism in the church fathers.

[delbertclement]

The fact that Tertullian is arguing against infant baptism is evidence that it was a practice within the early church and widespread enough to be commented on. Let alone, Tertullian is also assuming Baptismal regeneration in his argument against infant Baptism. Clearly he is not a Baptist.

[vdma]

YES, please do a podcast on Krauth's arguments on John 3!

[calvinpeterson]

It seems the early Church took sin very seriously. Now days we have accepted a differing view of sin and it has brought deep carnality into the Church.

[jimmyking]

fastest I've ever clicked on one of your uploads, this should be great heh

[j.sethfrazer]

Want a GOOD reason to dislike the NIV??

“…and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ”
‭‭(1 Peter‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭NIV‬‬)

They do not really get rid of Baptismal Regeneration with translating ἀντίτυπον as “symbolizes, ” but you can see they’re trying to…
🙃

[stevewalton]

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me: for such is the kingdom of heaven. Matt 19:14

[isacwaernkyrck]

Good and respectful response, wouldn't mind even more material on baptism!

[BaeGeeN]

Thank you for the thoughtful video, Dr. Cooper. As always, I appreciate how balanced you are. I've been a credobaptist my whole life, but I am probably closer to changing views on this than ever before. Not a fun place to be (and not totally convinced yet), but praying that God would help me to have a soft heart to the truth. Your videos have been helpful to discuss with the elders at my church.

I was curious to get your thoughts about the seriousness of this subject. One of my frustrations in this debate (especially as it concerns baptismal regeneration) is that nobody in my Evangelical Free Church wants to minimize baptism. They (along with the church fathers) would say that it is absolutely normative for believers and mandated. They (along with the church fathers) would say that there are valid exceptions where people could be saved without it, but would be very concerned about someone who was refusing the sacrament. They (along with the church fathers) would say that it's a means of grace, although I've never been able to really figure out the specifics of what that grace is.

Theology is extremely important, but it pains me to see the Church divide over this when there is so much agreement. Sure, there is a lot of disagreement as we get into more and more specific theology. For example, my church would deny ex-operato salvation from baptism. At the same time, they wouldn't be among those that would say that there were no baptized people for a huge chunk of church history when believer's baptism wasn't being practiced as much (if at all). They would also deny that someone being baptized means that the person has assuredly received the Spirit, and would probably be inclined to believe that the Spirit must come first, or nobody would come to Christ in the first place. That's probably more due to Calvinistic-leanings than anything else, but as a Mongergist yourself, I imagine you could be sympathetic toward that.

Especially if credobaptists and infantbaptists coexisted in the same Church for hundreds of years, would it be appropriate for more joining of hands to happen in today's context? I know that infant baptism eventually became normative, but then again, so did prayers to saints and (eventually) deep theologies of icon veneration, so is the fact that something became normative mean that reformation on the *weight* of the subject couldn't be beneficial? We need to pick our fights carefully.

So, without diminishing the importance of debate on these specifics, do you think I'm being too generous here in hoping for more unity on the things we agree on? I sometimes feel like when I listen to Anglicans and Lutherans talk about Baptists, there is a tone of "they could be saved, but just barely." How do you feel about it? I know there are Baptists that would be way more of a concern to you than others, but do you think my emphasis on unity might be unhelpful? Thanks again for your channel. You're an extremely kind person, and I thank you for the sincere love I know you feel for those in other traditions, even if you think their views are harmful.

[colinjames]

An episode on Krauth, John 3:5, and the Lutheran approach to infant damnation in relation baptism and not being baptized would be awesome.

[rangerswampyclay]

Would love to listen to a program on John 3 being about baptism!

[lorenzomurrone]

The cover photo is so bright and colourful! Where'd you find it?

[Yeshua_is_king_]

There is a strong assumption here from Cooper that all the baptism taken place at later age in early church found pre Augustine is due to the same reasoning tertulian suggested holding off baptism.

The biggest point is to show that there were clearly not infant baptism universally by tombstone deaths showing how baptism was given only to those who were sick (in hope it would lead to salvation). This shows infant baptism was not practiced. But something like this happening in 2nd centrury asume these people are doing it for reason he suggest. As far as we know the earliest writers like apostlic fathers and earliest patristic fathers never mention infant baptism, but only baptism for those who have faith. So, when you get to tombstone death/baptism for sick era, it’s most likely the case the practice was due to apostolic traditions of not baptizing infants, but church started to develop baptism for those who are sick(though may not be ready or not have faith) to help increase chance of salvation.

[bobthrasher]

Great explainations of the symbolism of Noah's salvation through water and the Israelites salvation through water. 26:32 There is so many parallels from the Exodus to our salvation. The story God tells here is really quite detailed.

[thewiseandthefoolish]

I agree with this assessment. Ortlunds view requires two presuppositions: not only is baptism symbolic, it is a metonym. However, neither presupposition is established by scripture. It sure requires a lot to be brought the table, a priori, to explain away the language of scripture to justify a baptistic language which _never_ speaks of baptism the same way scripture does. Ortlund has a huge burden of proof, but he makes no attempt to prove these two presuppositions.

[TheOtherPaul]

I'd like to know how you think baptismal regeneration gels with Sola Fide. On its face, baptismal regeneration makes baptism to be a "work of the law", so to speak, since it actually has salvific power, and not faith alone. How would you respond to this?

[jamessheffield]

Exodus 2:10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.

[jimmyking]

I've found believing that John 3:5 as a baptismal text a bit difficult, though one thought process I had was that since Jesus was baptized by that point, and it's likely that Nicodemus knew of that baptism, I think it seems clear that when Jesus says 'born of water and the Spirit ' does end up referring to baptism, but I would like to know more about the text so yes it'd be great if you could go through John 3:5 for this!

[bjw]

I don’t think this is quite what Dr Gavin is stating. His view actually is more sacramental than the traditional Baptist view, from why I gather. But I don’t want to misrepresent him. I did see that you two will have a upcoming dialogues on this and I can’t wait.

[thomascomerford]

St Justin Martyr says that infants are made Christ's disciples.

[Jassaj]

Yes for more videos on baptism.

Also maybe a video on infant damnation, because you didn't really answer to it here. It is not enough to say that most people who believe in baptismal regeneration don't believe in infant damnation. The real question is whether infant damnation is true or not?