Did St. Augustine Teach Double Predestination?

This video addresses the question as to whether St. Augustine and the following Augustinian tradition taught a doctrine of double predestination which is consistent with the later Calvinistic view.

[dennistakashima]

I am Reformed and I think that even if one can argue that Augustine used double predestination terms and stumbled into it; If one asked him he would probably try and argue he was single predestination, due to his emphasis on predestination to salvation. Thus, I am sure he would probably identify as single predestination.

[yellowblackbird]

I've found that even in churches that confirm double predestination they rarely bring it up other than to acknowledge it academically.

This is because they know it has no pastoral application and is essentially useless as a doctrine.

[BachClarinet]

It was great meeting you at St. John's and I loved your sermon. Beautiful family.

[AarmOZ]

The problem with this analysis is we are using terms that compares the arguments of Luther and Calvin and shoving them down then throat of Augustine. Augustine's predestination was more developed to deal against the Pelagian heresy and less developed to determine the order of the decrees of God and whether or not God passes over some as a result of electing some or because He decrees before hand that He will pass over some.

[jeremybamgbade]

Single predestination, when the destinations of human beings are binary (Saved and in heaven/Damned and in gehenna) is absurd. By not electing the reprobate, they are by definition predestined to damnation. Attempts to evade this are asinine.

[laudante]

If someone rejects the Gospel, it's certainly because he has an evil soul, but it's also because he never received the enough grace as to change his heart to believe and love Jesus, as others, who were just as evil as he is or more, did. And that bestowing of grace to some, according exclusively to divine purposes, must have been decided since eternity, just as the opposite.

[servusbellator]

The problem that individuals have is understanding that while predestination of the elect is Active, the predestination of the reprobate is PASSIVE.. They hear the explanation of predestination of the elect and then falsely equivocate it with the predestination of the reprobate.
I would argue that majority of the issues Dr Jordan and Lutheran's have with double predestination aren't really issues at all if properly understood as Elect = Active, reprobate = passive

[yvonnegonzales]

Predestination version: Augustine & Aquinas; Calvinist & Lutheran

[jonathanphelps]

I’m personally a Supralapsarian as Proverbs 16:4 clearly states that God created the wicked for the day of destruction. Romans 9:21-25 is also proof of the Supra position

[Acek-okdp]

How would you explain his phrasings of Augustine in:

On the City of God, Book II. Chap. 10
„But the devils, whom these men repute gods, are content that even iniquities they are guiltless of should be ascribed to them, so long as they may entangle men's minds in the meshes of these opinions, and draw them on along with themselves to their predestinated punishment: ...“

On the Gift of Perseverance, Chap. 38

„But yet, if there are any whom by His grace He has predestinated to be chosen, who are not yet called, ye shall receive that grace by which you may will and be chosen; and if any obey, if ye are predestinated to be rejected, the strength to obey shall be withdrawn from you, so that you may cease to obey.“

[lc-mschristian]

I was Presbyterian/ Calvinist. For about 20 years and NEVER heard a sermon, teaching, or read anything that promoted DOUBLE PREDESTINATION. The only time I've seen this is in people speaking against it. Is this a STRAWMAN teaching? I truly think it might. God's peace

[jazzmankey]

It seems to me that holding to a PASSIVE reprobation as opposed to an ACTIVE reprobation is a distinction without a difference since the results for those who are reprobated are identical. The reprobate’s destiny is set before they are born or have done any actual good or evil. This is also true for both the SUPRALAPSARIAN and the INFRALAPSARIAN views of reprobation since, again, the reprobate are condemned prior to their ever having been created. In either case, the destiny of the reprobate is still condemnation. The entire argument seems to me to be tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. What am I missing?

[The_name]

Double predestined Aryans or single predestined Aryans.

[toddvoss]

It is not clear although I doubt Augustine was a "strong" double predestinarian and likely could express his views as Single Predestination at least to salvation if compelled by the Church . However, his apparent views on God's universal will for salvation (i.e. 1 Timothy v 24) are hard to square with Catholic teaching. The Church has always been cautious and circumspect about interpretation of his views in this area since he is such a respected Doctor of the Church. But Catholic teaching is not reducible to Augustine. By the way this isn't Vatican II liberalization - see Ludwig Ott "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" - Book 4, Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 3, paragraph 11. Again you will note the very polite and cautious language but it is noted that Augustine (in his later years) may not have believed a proposition which is a '"teaching proximate to the faith". Some of the more interesting recent views on all of this were set forth by Father William Most in a book which was roundly ignored as Vatican II council drew everyone's attention instead of what must have seemed an "arcane" matter in the heady but questionable Catholic enthusiasm of that era. Some essays which outline the arguments are available here:

[ThruTheUnknown]

Single predestination is still fatalism as you have no power or choice to choose to do the good (in terms of salvation), you're dead in your sins and as the reformed atheist Derek Webb would say and there's nothing he nor anyone else can do to affect his salvation even though Derek wants God to make him belief, he's just sitting there waiting for it to happen, nothing else he can do.

Single predestination is just double predestination dressed up in a cheap tuxedo.

[halilalexanderzeverboom]

The Word of God gives evidence for double predestination.

[laudante]

Single predestination is impossible. If you are not predestined for salvation, then you are for damnation, because nothing is created without a purpose and there's no middle point. In the moment that each person's existence is decreed, it is decreed also if they will be vassels of honor or of ordinary use. Both are necessary for God's purposes, even if He doesn't take pleasure in the damnation of anybody. It's very sad, but Paul's answer on Romans 9 to those who think that God is unjust for this, leaves no doubt. Who are you...? Etc.

[Ryan_Zell]

Every Protestant that proclaims that we are justified by Faith Alone should HEAR these FOUR words by James 2:24 RINGING in their EARS:

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone."

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone."

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone."

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone." 

"not by faith alone."


The Protestant Scripture Twister Series #4 - Luther 2:24

[Alfredo]

Dr Jordan Cooper, Saint Agustin did not teach SOLA Fide, either,
This must not be understood in such a way as to say that a man who has received faith and continues to live is righteous, even though he leads a wicked life. (Questions 76.1; commenting on Romans 3:28; Bray, 105; Defferari, Vol. 70, 195)



Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law, ” have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapters 18; NPNF 1, Vol. V

[E]ven those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, . . . the apostle himself, after saying, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them . . . “Not of works” is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. . . . grace is for grace, as if remuneration for righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it is true, that God “shall reward every man according to his works.” (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapter 20; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

[EcclesiastesLiker-pyts]

God dignifies us with free will, the power to make decisions of our own rather than having God or fate predetermine what we do. Consider what the Bible teaches.

God created humans in his image. (Genesis 1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble our Creator in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. And like our Creator, we have free will.

To a great extent, we can determine our future. The Bible encourages us to “choose life . . . by listening to [God’s] voice, ” that is, by choosing to obey his commands. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) This offer would be meaningless, even cruel, if we lacked free will. Instead of forcing us to do what he says, God warmly appeals to us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”—Isaiah 48:18.

Our success or failure is not determined by fate. If we want to succeed at an endeavor, we must work hard. “All that your hand finds to do, ” says the Bible, “do with your very power.”(Ecclesiastes 9:10) It also says: “The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage.”—Proverbs 21:5.

Free will is a precious gift from God, for it lets us love him with our “whole heart”—because we want to.—Matthew 22:37.

Doesn’t God control all things?

The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.—Psalm 37:10, 11.