Open Theism and Dynamic Omniscience with Warren McGrew, ROUND 2

I discuss Open Theism and Dynamic Omniscience with Warren McGrew of Idol Killer
Creative Commons / Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)

[apilkey]

Starts @6:10 before that you can’t hear anything.

Pro Tip: whenever doing a livestream always do a sound check with the audience first and always glance at the side chat when you start instead of waiting till you’re 6 minutes in.

[Falconing]

I think last thing to say is that it has been such a long time since I have witnessed two men disagree on a topic and not start fighting, cheers.

[wretchedsinnerRighteousSavior]

Looking forward to future conversations gentlemen

[the_guitarcade]

The best thing about the sleep views is that they watch all the way to the end. The worst thing is that they don't comment.

I want to start by saying how much I appreciate how cordial and respectful of each other you and Warren have been in these dialogs. I am an open theist, so I may be misunderstanding your position, but it sounds to me like your main hangup on open theism is the question, "How can God truly and accurately make non-contingent prophecies with specificity about events that won't take place for hundreds of years in open theism?" If I am understanding correctly, would you provide a specific list of prophecies that you think defeat or pose a difficulty for open theism? I'm just a dude in the comments with no credentials, so if you don't want to just give me a list, I totally get it, but if you made it into a video for Warren to respond to, or just made the list and had Warren on to go over it, I'm sure that would be beneficial to at least a few people. I'll watch this again this weekend to try to see if I'm misunderstanding.

[laurakosch]

Granted, dynamic omniscience is a new way of thinking for many of us.

But I’m starting to realize that a lot of our theological understandings are habits of group think, or just what the pastors are all saying, so much so that we confuse these commonly held beliefs with actual scripture.

It happens a lot with Calvinist assertions - they will treat a Sproule quote as though it has scriptural weight.
We have to always go to the Bible (obviously).

But we have these ingrained preconceptions.

It’s hard for us to think, for example, that God doesn’t know exactly who will be saved and who will be lost (even in a completely non Calvinist view).

We struggle to see scripture with fresh eyes.

[laurakosch]

Granted, dynamic omniscience is a new way of thinking for many of us.

But I’m starting to realize that a lot of our theological understandings are habits of group think, or just what the pastors are all saying, so much so that we confuse these commonly held beliefs with actual scripture.

It happens a lot with Calvinist assertions - they will treat a Sproule quote as though it has scriptural weight.
We have to always go to the Bible (obviously).

But we all have these ingrained preconceptions. And we all feel the pressure of group conformity.

It’s hard for us to think, for example, that God doesn’t know exactly who will be saved and who will be lost (even in a completely non Calvinist view).

We struggle to see scripture with fresh eyes.

[treywhite]

I can understand most of what Warren is saying. It almost gives me a headache. In the past I thought of God knowing things like Dr. Strange in marvel looking at every possible scenario of future events and then telling iron man which one will defeat the enemy. I’m not sure what I think now. All this might be above my pay grade. I’ll keep trying. Thanks

[awesomefacepalm]

I'm hold to pre trib dispensationalism but consider myself in the dynamic omniscience camp

[Falconing]

A huge map where each decision has at least two paths and God knows what each path leads and he can know which one you will choose but we miss that God can choose not to know or know, he can watch what we do as a viewer or he can influence us or he can force us on a path if it be his will.

[laurakosch]

Here’s an example question:

“Did God know that I was going to be born?”

This could only be known if God’s creation of me was a direct act of His sovereign will (since He could not be studying my behaviour to answer this question).

I find the dynamic omniscient view pretty compelling - it does resonate with scripture.

Sometimes God sets up a situation to “see what” a person will do. Gen 22:12 “do not harm the boy; now I know that you fear God and will not spare your son, your only son”

[treywhite]

Jesus knew people’s thoughts. I would think that type of knowledge could come into play

[perrygoodman]

Would open theism make the offer of the kingdom during Christ earthly ministry completely legit? God didn't know for sure if Israel would except Jesus as their king, and since they didn't we have the church age. Just something I have thought about since I've been learning about open theism

[Mark-Hum]

I will take God at his word. Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, "

Your guest talks about "God inhabiting, " and temporal regions. I tend to believe God created time, so he is outside of it, just like space and matter. God after all is described as spirit. If God were inside of time he would not be able to interact with anything faster than the speed of light based upon relativity.

[williamlkeating]

I, like George, really appreciate the view Warren espouses because it makes sense of much of how the Bible speaks about things. Here's where I'm getting stuck, and I think it's what George is getting at starting at about 35 minutes.

Warren says the two ways God can know the future are: 1) by Him determining to do it. There are many examples of this in Scripture. 2) by Him knowing us so intimately that He can predict what we will do.

With some of Daniel's prophecies, I can't make sense of this. Maybe that is because I'm missing something. In Daniel 11 there is a series of human rulers succeeding each other and their actions are predicted as well. Some of those actions are evil. As these people do not exist yet, it does not seem possible for God to ground knowledge of those events in knowing that person and the character they have developed. They are down the line of a series of people. I don't know how He would even know with certainty that they would exist. That leaves the other option that God determines that succession of rulers and their evil acts. Wouldn't that be God determining for those people to do evil?

I'm not saying this antagonistically. I am genuinely trying to understand. Maybe there is a good explanation I'm missing.

[Falconing]

Did you read that God knows all things ? and how he is deeper than hell broader than the ocean and longer than and exist at all times, it is as though you think you can know what God said you cannot. 7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

[apilkey]

@1:19:52 not sure why it would be fated if you freely chose something.

Once you freely choose something and then that comes to pass you cannot then undo what you e freely chosen.

You can only freely choose one thing so is that now fated because you chose it?

[Josephb]

Warren always sets up a staw man by defining open theism incorrectly. He basically says, if you are not a Calvinist, you're an open theist. Or in the open theist camp.
Problem, open theists think God doesn't know the future. This is one of the defining characteristics of God. "He who declares the end from the beginning. "

[apilkey]

@1:19:52 not sure why it would be fated if you freely chose something.

Once you freely choose something and then that comes to pass you cannot then undo what you e freely chosen.

You can only freely choose one thing so is that now fated because you chose it?