RIVEN is a D&D Puzzle MASTERCLASS

Let's break down Riven: Sequel to Myst, and learn what we can about D&D Puzzle Making. In this video we will demonstrate how Riven uses disconnected clues placed through environmental storytelling to show how real Dungeons and Dragons puzzles should be designed.

[jordanvanness]

Coincidentally, when Rand and Robyn were creating Myst they initially playtested it by literally DMing players through the world rather than taking the time to build working demos. Rand even included a structure from his D&D setting in one of the ages.

[leandronc]

Whenever I think of the great adventure games I played back then, Riven comes to mind as the very best. The entire game is almost a single huge puzzle. It's so organic, and when it all came together and clicked for me, I remember feeling chills.

[RassilonOmega]

1:22 "No real locksmith or craftsman would leave such obvious and glaring security flaws."

Counterpoint, just about every video on LPL's channel

[DarkQueenHelba]

All you said is what entranced me with Riven as a child. I was very young, under 10, when my dad played it. But I remember watching him. Those graphics, the environmental story telling... He stayed up late for months playing and was so satisfied when he beat it.

We actually kept all his notes from that play through. A literal binder full just of Riven and Myst notes! I never seen a modern game quite compare with Riven. Not in story or style. I’m kind of sad I won’t.

[daveshif]

The myst novels also have some cool traps which lend thenselves well to dnd, especially because they involve multiple characters instead of just one. An example is the trap that involves following someone through a linking book but that book has been tossed into a vat of acid, i forget exactly what happens but the writing is well done and logical.

Also if were taking about myst, we should talk about myst 3, the puzzles are super cool and many are tech based. I stole one for my dnd game, it involves using a telescope to get coordinates of certain symbols, requiring perception checks to get hints.

One thing i think helps a lot to “dnd-ify” puzzles like this is to have a bunch of clues ready to hand out IF the players start asking to roll skills. Those clues can help immerse players if they forgot what to do, and can also help them solve the puzzles if theyre stumped. A lot of puzzles i see are just problems without clues that force you to solve them or stop playing. You really cant have too many clues, meaning if you need to invent some clues on the spot, thats ok! So what if your puzzle suddenly gets “easier”, it doesnt need to be hard or frustrating, it needs to be fun and engaging. On that note, puzzles may not be every pc’s “thing” so consider the party composition and try to put something for everyone to do, even if it means having a little combat so the fighter can help defend the others while they solve the puzzle, anything to get them engaged really. A puzzle can usually be adapted to have a few extra steps that serve only to engage the pcs that usually wouldn’t interact with a puzzle, like having something heavy that the fighter needs to hold while the rogue picks a lock or something, you can just add these details as you go.

[WizardbornGames]

Incredibly helpful. This is so important for DM’s — for the longest times, I have felt unfulfilled by my own puzzles. I’ve really been thinking a lot about this lately and needed this video. Nicely done.

[VenkmanZero]

Myst and Riven were early favorites of mine growing up so it is interesting to see someone talking about them. I always liked the way these games flowed and bridging those patterns into Dnd is a fascinating topic.

[lionspawfilmandphoto]

That whark chamber also provides a legend for the color symbol system used in the game which all comes back to the importance of the Gold Dome master puzzle.

[gregkrazanski]

it really is a masterpiece. great analysis on the game design. i designed/built/operated an escape room once and used these exact principles (contextual clues and information that made sense in its environment that when combined and reorganized became meaningful and allowed you to progress). I don't think ANY designers have ever done it as well as Cyan have to this day. Even their game, Obduction, blows any other adventure/puzzle game out of the water

[Fenrir]

Thank you so much for this. I think Riven and Myst are responsible for my odd ability to remember the most random stuff and almost non-existent need for a notebook.
This was an incredible walk down memory lane and an excellent primer on creating a lived in world.

[merezko]

Very well put, I'd like your take on Outer Wilds, as its not presented in the same way as riven but is itself a huge puzzle box like riven

[SeraphsWitness]

Must/Riven is the main reason I got into the game industry. Really concise deconstruction you did there!

You should check out this new game called Tunic. It executes this ‘contextual puzzle’ concept FLAWLESSLY. the information is revealed to the player at such a satisfying pace, such that learning one small bit of information sheds entirely new context on places you’ve already been. This makes for an extremely satisfying gameplay loop wherein retracing steps isn’t a chore, it’s a joy. When you do feel like traversing the land is becoming slow, the game hits you with a brand new power to not only increase your speed massively, but to access once inaccessible areas. The levels are small overall but so much character is injected into such a small area because of the progressive revelation approach they took. They use a similar foreign language approach too, which really makes you feel like a visitor in a land that continues on even as you turn the game off.

[Frederic_S]

This looks like the intro to the best ttrpg puzzle video series ever made. Please make more environmental puzzle videos. All my puzzles try to be like this and I would LOVE to Head More of your thogths on the topic.

[jamesd]

I've repeated it many times in my life so I'll do it again here as well: if I were to magically able to alter my mind so I can experience something for the first time again, it would be Riven. Such a great, great experience it was. I would add to your discussion that fact that Riven would sprinkle you with info very early on that didn't come into play until much later, ultimately giving the players a tremendous "ah ha!" moment. So well done in so many ways.

[RUJedi]

Great video & great idea. I see 3 pressing challenges to this approach, but look forward to overcoming them somehow.
1) Games like Riven and Myst (as least as far as I remember them) were one-player whereas D&D and many other rpgs are multi-player experiences. Those players will likely incorporate encountered information differently. This is all well and fine, until some players try to dismiss such information as useless and/or rely on other players to recognize the information as important enough to think about later.
Which brings me to:

2) Gameplay sessions can have long break periods between them. This increases the challenge of players retaining fine details experienced in-game. I've found this problem is worse the longer the amount of time between sessions and worse when players don't take notes (or take poor notes) or when alcohol is involved (not hating). I usually award in-game benefits for players willing to do previous-game recaps for everyone at the start of each session and it certainly helps. However, the more details spread out across game sessions, the harder they will be to remember when it becomes necessary.

The first two points might be overcome by having many of these game immersive clues throughout the various environments, but have them overlap should some be missed or forgotten; include other in-game triggers that help remember the clues before the clues are needed; minimize the number of puzzles that rely on these clues; and design variety into the clues so they would be attracted to the characters and not just the players (PC: why would my big dumb fighter 'who dunt reed gud' be interested in that painting and the inscription around it.? GM: Maybe not the inscription so much, but the details of the battle depicted in the painting remind you of __(insert RP moment)__."

But the 3rd challenge might be the hardest one yet, and it is a challenge for any type of in-game puzzle, including the traditional ones with levers, buttons, etc.
3) What to do if/when the players don't figure out the puzzle. One obvious, and far from best, option is to let the players keep at it until the puzzle is solved. Most players can overcome lever-style and other fun house puzzles without too much real time investment, provided the puzzles are not crazy complex. Not saying it is a rewarding experience, but it is passable. However, the more challenging the puzzle, for which I include certainly ones that require the clues found through the game environment leading up to that puzzle (sometimes oddly encountered ones, if at all, like in Riven or Myst), then the harder it may be for the players, which can quickly lead to frustration. GMs should always have back-up plans for if/when the puzzles go unsolved. If the GM is unable to help surmount player frustration, it could quickly devolve into things like accusations of GM railroading, IRL sore feelings, or worse.

[ankoku]

I'm a simple man. I see someone talking about how good Riven is, I hit the like button.

[azraelle]

I always felt like Myst was two different games: a scenery walkthrough simulator, and a puzzle game. The player walks around in beautiful worlds, but the puzzles were just sort of added in to give them something to do. With Riven, the puzzles are ingrained into the world, and no one who actually lived there would think of these things as "puzzles, " or "clues." They were just details of their world. The player is someone who's new, never been there, but able to deduce connections between these things in order to figure out how to proceed. And as much as I love the game Quern: Undying Thoughts because it reminds me so much of old-school Myst and Riven, it sadly falls more into the first category of puzzle game rather than the second: beautiful scenery, with clues and puzzles peppered in so that the player has something to do.

[goldcharizard]

Two of my favorite things... The MYST series and d&d colliding. You had my Interest with d&d. You had my attention with RIVEN.

[kevingriffith]

This actually reminds me of an AD&D module: The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh and a clue that the party finds in the first half of the adventure that is complete gibberish until the party discovers the context in the bridge to the second half of the adventure. (Spoilers ahead)



- . . .
. - . -
- - -

is the clue they get on a piece of paper in the manor house, with nothing else written on it. It doesn't relate to any part of the dungeon that where it's found, as far as the adventurers can tell... but if they wait at the manor house until nightfall, they'll be able to see a light off of a cliff on the coast, blinking at the the house in a fixed pattern: Long, short short short. Hopefully when they see this the clue will be fresh on their mind, but the adventure doesn't really mind one way or the other if they miss it.

[Reliken]

My takeaway from this video: I would love to see your take on what GMs can learn from Outer Wilds!