The Trinity, the Early Church, and Contemporary Critics — David Bercot – Ep. 213

This is a lecture that was recorded at a ministry training event. David Bercot focused on how to explain the Trinity to those who are not Christians.

This is the 213th episode of Anabaptist Perspectives, a podcast, blog, and YouTube channel that examines various aspects of conservative Anabaptist life and thought.

The views expressed by our guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Anabaptist Perspectives or Wellspring Mennonite Church.

[javabradley]

Very helpful and clarifying talk. There seems to be a tremendous surge in Muslim/Christian discussion and debate over the last few years. I’m praying our Muslim friends and family will see Jesus for who He truly is.

[omegatafkal]

Thank you for this sermon. The deity of Christ is under greater attack than ever now, even from professing Christians.

[IAmisMaster]

Brilliant lecture, David Bercot. This is in accord with the Nicene Creed, all Christians for the first 300 years (Irenaeus' Proof of the Apostolic Preaching pts 4-7 and 47, for example), and the best scholarship of Eastern Orthodoxy on the Trinity by Dr. Beau Branson and John Behr. We Christians need to be clear: we believe in One God the Father Almighty, and in One Lord Jesus Christ, the true Son of the One God.

[GeraldWadel]

Very helpful! I'm curious if it is proper to address prayers to Jesus as opposed to just the Father?

[unitariananabaptist]

I do credit David Bercot in his effort to attempt an explanation for this baffling doctrine. There are very few in the Anabaptist realm that would be so daring.

[Sirach]

I disagree with his point on love. It says God is love not that God has love. Once a characteristic. The other ones in action.

[rogerdiller]

After watching this video, I had a sense that something is off with the teaching. Somehow it translated to me as making Christ somewhat lesser or “downstream” from God the Father.

[Sirach]

I’m just confused at how Jesus can have an origin if he’s always existed. Also, how can one be a father and the other be his son if they both always existed.

[unitariananabaptist]

The Concept of the “Trinity “ in its formal iteration is defined by Roman law under the reign of Emperor Theodosius in 381 AD and Consolidated by Emperor Justinian in 451 AD. The Creeds fashioned in this era were produced to support the Political apparatus.Christendom became the State religion and religious expression became illegal. This topic of Trinity came up during the Reformation. Unfortunately, those who questioned this concept were often persecuted out of existence.
With the exception of the Unitarian Brethren in Poland, Transylvania and some brilliant thinkers in England the Orthodoxy of Rome maintained its sway.

This presentation is timely and should provoke listeners to examine the biblical identity of Jesus the Son of who was begotten of Mary by the Spirit of the One True God.

[betawithbrett]

Yes David is using the word "orthodoxy" not Orthodoxy. In other words, what the word means Orthos ορθος from Greek means Straight (and metaphorically "correct" meaning)... and "doxy" from Latin for "teaching"... so he is just saying "correct teaching" and I am sure his intent is to indicate "Apostolic teaching" or "Historic Teaching". However, not sure if every Orthodox priest would explain this historic perspective correctly, but in general, the Orthodox church still teaches the Trinity correctly.

[JoshuaLeibrant-drxv]

I affirm the constubstantiality of the three and the Monarchy of the Father Unbegotten, the Son who proceeds by generation, and the Spirit who proceeds from the substance of the Father alone through the operation of the Son. I affirm logical sequence in the Trinity, Father first and eternal, the Son second, generated without the Helper, and the Third the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Substance of the Father alone through the Instrumentality of the Son. Where I differ is that there actually was a point before all ages where the Father was indeed alone and not "Father" to us or Christ. I affirm the Apostalic constitutions are indeed inspired, and they teach this very thing in several places. Thus I agree with Origen in that the Son is "older than He (the Holy Spirit"

[paulagarten]

I like to use the analogy of water. Water is H2O and is 1 thing.

[ronmiller]

Collosians tells us that God created all things by Jesus Christ.
Genesis rings out with the words, "and God SAID".
JOHN 1 proclaims "and the WORD became flesh".
Before he was born in human flesh Jesus was the voice of God.

[euston]

Did the Father begin to love you only after he created you? No. The Father loved you, and every single human being he has ever created or will ever create, _from eternity._ He doesn't need the mythical "eternally begotten Son" to be an eternally loving Father.

The one true God - the Father - _is_ love. And the greatest demonstration of love is to *lay down one's **_own_** life* for others (John 15:13). The trinitarian version of "God the Father" did not lay down his own life for anyone. So the trinitarian version of "God the Father" is not the one true God.

The one and only true God - God the Father, "The everlasting Father" (Isa.9:6) - is the unipersonal Spirit who "came down from heaven" _without leaving heaven, _ and who manifested _himself_ on earth in genuine human form, as _his own_ Son, so that he could *lay down **_his own_** life* for us, raise _himself_ from the dead, and give eternal life to all who believe on _him._

And the _name_ of this unipersonal, *self-sacrificing* Spirit is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*

*1 TIMOTHY 3:16 (KJV)*
And without controversy *great* is the *mystery* of godliness: *GOD was manifest in the flesh, * justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[brothernick]

It's not wise to acknowledge importance of a late 2nd century tradition makering theologian crafted doctrine.
Makes no sense to recognize it.

In reality there no such biblical thing as "trinity". It only exists in the mind of the theologian tertullian who was well known as a tradition maker who confessed was void of any scriptural support.

In the old and new testimant the Holy Spirit is called The Spirit of God. Over and over again. Jesus said God's a Spirit.
Jesus explained who the Holy Spirit was. Why is it everybody rejects Jesus all the time and then turns to theologians. Respectfully, that's kinda evil.


The night before His death Jn14, Jesus defined Him, “I AM INSIDE  MY FATHER, and YOU ARE INSIDE ME (in christ), and I AM INSIDE  YOU ."

John 14
[11] Believe Me that I am inside the Father and the Father inside Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
[15] “If you love Me, keep My commandments. [16] And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be inside you.
[20] At that day you will know that I am inside My Father, and you inside Me, and I inside you.

Note :the inner mixing of the Father Spirit with Christ Spirit and the hosting temples (our) spirit.


[23] Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. "


[26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you "

Jn17 Jesus praying to the Father again reinnerates the mixing of the Spirits

[21] that they all may be one, as You, Father, are inside Me, and I in You; that they also may be one inside Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I inside them, and You inside Me; that they may be made perfect inside one"

[calebpearce]

ENORMOUS PROBLEM at 29:50 David appears to deny the humanity of Christ!

Jesus is truly God and truly man. If Christ is not God, his death is insufficient for our sins; but if He is not also man, his death cannot redeem man. A lot of this talk was on John 1 but does David not understand that the word became FLESH? When the old and new testaments mention the “son of man” this is to emphasize that the redeemer is truly a man. Scripture refers to Christ as the second Adam.

1 John 4:2 teaches that Jesus has come in the flesh, and calls those Antichrist who deny this.

I assume this is simply a misspeak on David’s part, but if he is going to give lectures on trinitarianism, he should try to be careful about his terms. If David truly persists in denying the humanity of Christ, he must be avoided.

[GodFearingg]

Trinity is Catholic and pagan. Repent.

[discipleinlight]

Trinity is always going to be false. God is one. Jesus is God. Start there.

[cleightthejw]

"How can he (Jesus) be eternal???" You ask.

Godo question. But I have a better one for you- IF Jesus is 'eternal' but can't be considered 'created/made'- HOW do trinitarians believe that they are going to inherit 'eternal life' when none of you is eternal especially like God or the lesser one existing because of Jehovah God -Jesus/Michael??

No understanding of the non-biblical doctrine of the trinity(s0 is true If you don't want to accept the view of Jesus being Michael the arch angel THEN perhaps go learn about the Unitarians (NOT unitarian Universalist).