Toxic vs. Healthy Masculinity

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[AROAH]

Shaking off the chains of caring about what it means to be “masculine” was one of the best things I ever did. Highly recommend being your own person regardless of society’s expectations.

[zentesque]

As a woman, I always hated that term and felt it is simply degrading, as if implying that toxicity is innate to men. What would "toxic femininity" equivalent be, like... gossip? Emotional manipulation throught tears and such? Toxic behavior, to me, is genderless, ageless, raceless etc. Gosh, imagine "toxic senior-ship" or "toxic blackness" 💀 So stupid, divisive and alienating.

Edit: Y'all, I'm really excited to see the depth of conversation and debate I've started with my comment - keep it going! But please, keep it respectful. Also, I expanded my stance on this topic in some of my replies, so read those if you care to know. Otherwise, I'm dropping out since I no longer see anything new being said that I haven't already addressed. Peace ✌

[fisicogamer]

Dude, i am happy to not be born with the internet.
Beyond being a man, i don't wanna be toxic as a human.
As long as I understand what I mean by that in practice(and I apply those concepts in my life and my loved ones) i care no shit about others opinion.
Be strong my dudes . People's opinion are often dumber the more extreme those are.

[Koroistro]

I define "toxic" as "harmful to self and/or others".
Man or woman, doesn't matter.
For example I see narcissistic as toxic. Lack or refusal of communication is toxic, and so on.
Although I am trying not to overuse the term.

[susannepinheirobartolo]

Definition : Academic usage. In the social sciences, toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall. So for example teaching men to never be able to talk about their worries or to teach them women are second grade humans and men stand above them. If people use the term outside of the definition it is not toxic masculinity.

[brandonjackson]

I always thought toxic masculinity was stuff like violence, shame/shaming, cruelty, and or self harm in the name of masculinity or the creating the perception of it for others. But I also don't like those things either.

[midwinter]

Definitions: I'm a descriptivist. Definitions are about usage in real life, but _who's_ usage and _which_ parts of real life. There are senses grounded in feminist theory that are a lot more nuanced than Dr K's definition, however it often seems that Dr K's definition is what the terms degenerate into especially on the internet. There seems to be a treadmill where words and phrases are born precise and degenerate into mere synonyms for "good" and "bad".

[IGNITION]

"Lack of healthy masculinity" is a concept I almost never hear discussed. Related: Testosterone levels down 30%+ since 1970. See the connection between testosterone and physical and mental health.
(Possibly down by 40-50%. Can't find research after early 2000s.)

[DingDingTheYoutubeBuddy]

This is why I honestly have just disregarded the whole idea of "masculinity" in general when I was in my late teens and have just decided to instead focus on trying to be the best person I can be rather than the best man I can be - I dont give a fuck if im a "good man, " I just want to be a good person. I try to judge other people on this criteria as well, who cares of they're being a good man/woman, are they being a good person is the only question that matters

[CrimsonCooker]

Ppl never call something “healthy masculine”. They either appreciate it, or begrudgingly accept its benefit. Or they just flat out hate it regardless if they are an Uber feminist or something like that. Although I do agree, something being toxically masculine or “healthy masculine” does rely a lot on perception, sometimes there are things that are actually “toxic” or just bad that are more common in men and some good things that are also common in men ei healthy. It’s not always just perception.

[theoneneolink]

I thought toxic masculinity referred to toxic traits that are more closely associated with things that are more unique to the experience of being a man, especially when it comes to how men associate with one another.

[LmpnBzkt]

In this day and age I am toxic simply on merit of existence. So you know what? I don't care. I do what I want and see fit and I don't care about the opinions of stupid people.

[lokasen]

And this, fellas, is the reason why words and expressions have and should keep their clear definitions and context.
In academic papers, it's supposed to be a bundle of socially harmful and destructive behaviors which are usually excused by others because the perpetrator is a boy or a man.

For instance, a child shoving others and harming them or destroying things on a tantrum, "but it's just a boy".
Another example being an adult harassing others and being menacing and pissed off when someone doesn't go out of their way to avoid bumping into them in a public space because he's a man and expects others to move around him and not the other way around regardless of any context.

If a behavior that's universally recognized as bad and harmful to self and others is excused specifically because of the person's gender and the subjects of those harmful behaviors are the ones expected to suck it up (even when you're the one ending up harming yourself), then it's toxic behavior based on their belonging to a specific gender.

[benjaminfrost]

And yet all I hear said about folks on the internet or otherwise is "toxic masculinity" or "simp" or "insert negative LGBTQIA+ term here". Never have I ever heard it called "Healthy Masculinity" by anyone but you.

[zzzzoot]

tox masc - using your power to push others down
pos masc - using your power to lift others up

Rocky is one of my favorite examples of positive masculinity. He uses his strength to pull everyone he cares about up with him.

[michaelhenault]

Correct. Be aware of your own self-esteem.

Take responsibility.😊

[vvs]

Toxic behaviour is toxic. Got nothing to do with masculinity.

[ADHDDude]

Excellent point Alok, thank you for this.

[FlameAlchemist]

That’s a pretty fair and logical analysis. Instead of trying to redefine the terms as per your personal understanding or motives you objectively laid out how people can sometimes twist their meanings and create custom definitions which conform to their own likeness and biases.

[sheolcodemonkey]

I've always felt like "toxic masculinity" is just toxicity in ways that are classically attributed to men, and the only reason a name was given to it is because people don't want to recognise women as having enough mental agency to do anything wrong except by accident, whereas men are expected to be in control and are therefore being bad people if their behaviour is toxic

I remember seeing an article about "toxic femininity" after an incident on Love Island and it listed off a bunch of traits, then finished by reminding the reader that these are learned behaviours arising from societal expectations placed on women, and should be approached with empathy and compassion

And like... you're not wrong, but... *gestures vaguely at the hypocrisy*