167 - Gary Taubes: Bad science and challenging the conventional wisdom of obesity

Gary Taubes is an investigative science and health journalist and a best-selling author. In this podcast, Gary explains how he developed a healthy skepticism for science as he was transitioning from being a physics major to beginning as a science journalist. He talks about how he was particularly drawn to sussing out “pathologic science,” telling the stories behind his books on the discovery of the W and Z bosons and cold fusion, emphasizing the need for researchers to perform a thorough background analysis. Gary then describes how his work came to focus on public health, nutrition, and obesity. He provides a great historic overview of obesity research and provides his explanation for why the conventional wisdom today is incorrect.

We discuss:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:10 - Gary’s background in science and journalism, and developing a healthy skepticism for science;
00:08:27 - Gary’s boxing experience, and the challenge of appreciating behavioral risk;
00:18:55 - How Gary developed his writing skills, and what the best science writers do well;
00:29:53 - Example of how science can go wrong, and the story behind Gary’s first book, Nobel Dreams;
00:43:22 - Theoretical vs. experimental physicists: The important differentiation and the relationship between the two;
00:48:52 - Pathological science: research tainted by unconscious bias or subjective effects;
01:00:39 - Reflecting on the aftermath of writing Nobel Dreams and the legacy of Carlo Rubbia;
01:05:39 - Scientific fraud: The story of the cold fusion experiments at Georgia Tech and the subject of Gary’s book, Bad Science;
01:24:45 - Problems with epidemiology, history of the scientific method, and the conflict of public health science;
01:46:51 - Gary’s first foray into the bad science of nutrition;
01:58:04 - Research implicating insulin’s role in obesity, and the story behind what led to Gary’s book, Good Calories, Bad Calories;
02:10:00 - The history of obesity research, dietary fat, and fat metabolism;
02:21:47 - The evolving understanding of the role of fat metabolism in obesity and weight gain;
02:32:37 - Mutant mice experiments giving way to competing theories about obesity;
02:38:30 - How Gary thinks about the findings that do not support his alternative hypothesis about obesity;
02:45:19 - Challenges with addressing the obesity and diabetes epidemics, palatability and convenience of food, and other hypotheses;
02:57:30 - Challenging the energy balance hypothesis, and the difficulty of doing good nutrition studies;

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About:

The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 30 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.

Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life).

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[PeterAttiaMD]

In this episode we discuss:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:10 - Gary’s background in science and journalism, and developing a healthy skepticism for science
00:08:27 - Gary’s boxing experience, and the challenge of appreciating behavioral risk
00:18:55 - How Gary developed his writing skills, and what the best science writers do well
00:29:53 - Example of how science can go wrong, and the story behind Gary’s first book, Nobel Dreams
00:43:22 - Theoretical vs. experimental physicists: The important differentiation and the relationship between the two
00:48:52 - Pathological science: research tainted by unconscious bias or subjective effects
01:00:39 - Reflecting on the aftermath of writing Nobel Dreams and the legacy of Carlo Rubbia
01:05:39 - Scientific fraud: The story of the cold fusion experiments at Georgia Tech and the subject of Gary’s book, Bad Science
01:24:45 - Problems with epidemiology, history of the scientific method, and the conflict of public health science
01:46:51 - Gary’s first foray into the bad science of nutrition
01:58:04 - Research implicating insulin’s role in obesity, and the story behind what led to Gary’s book, Good Calories, Bad Calories
02:10:00 - The history of obesity research, dietary fat, and fat metabolism
02:21:47 - The evolving understanding of the role of fat metabolism in obesity and weight gain
02:32:37 - Mutant mice experiments giving way to competing theories about obesity
02:38:30 - How Gary thinks about the findings that do not support his alternative hypothesis about obesity
02:45:19 - Challenges with addressing the obesity and diabetes epidemics, palatability and convenience of food, and other hypotheses
02:57:30 - Challenging the energy balance hypothesis, and the difficulty of doing good nutrition studies

[dawne]

Twelve years ago my husband had 3 stokes and we found out he was diabetic. I had been starving myself obese on 1200 low fat, high fibre calories a day, so had no problem putting him on the diet they gave me for him.
For every 3 weeks, for 8 months both he and his bloodwork were worse. That is when I watched a lecture and read Good Calories/Bad Calories. Used the British diet in the Prologue.
The next bloodwork showed improvement. Kept getting better. Several months later a stranger understood him. I went from size 18 to 6/8.
Gary Taubes is a hero. Way better than an astronaut.

[beverlyxango]

Thank you for allowing the masses to observe the brilliance of "superb critical thinking and questioning" the science as Gary Taubes and Peter Attia question for the long-term benefit of future generations. I never knew the background of Gary Taubes in science & physics. In my career I rarely saw obesity in Asia during the mid-'90s and within 10 years it was more common. My daughter, an excellent internal medicine and obesity physician in Pasadena, California introduced me to both of you years ago. Thank you for expanding consciousness. Please keep questioning, writing and sharing. "The application of the current model is failing."

[carsgunsandguitars]

I'm so thankful for your podcast Dr. Attia. Thanks for having Gary on!

[Deanriley]

Gary’s GCBC is one of the most enlightening books I ever read; it has continued to influence my thinking about food and science for years.

[kathleendexter]

I am relieved to be able to ask my husband to watch one of my favorite YouTube channels due entirely the introduction of this video. This was an utterly fascinating interview from the outset. Thank you, Dr. Attia, for allowing Mr. Taubes the opportunity shares his views, his investigative journalism and factual information. It put me into the “fly on the wall” perspective as your interview style is enviable. You definitely develop a rapport as you take the time to put them at ease. Your gentle teasing to reassure Mr. Taubes was appreciated. What an incredible conversation regarding risk, from discussing boxing to dietary change, and helping your audience (those willing to listen) become mindful of the direct link between a proper human diet and the human body’s longevity. ‘Speaking as a late-stage cancer patient (in full remission for the 4th year) and pre-diabetic, I wish I had found the Low Carb community sooner, but like with anything else, you don’t appreciate what you have until it’s gone…or threatened.

[DarkoFitCoach]

Gary Taubes was my first introduction into going full keto, this was back in 2013. greta book, fantastic knowledge and great person Gary

[JohnsonNestorFamily]

Soooo interesting! Thank you Gary Taubes for you interest and work.
I'm 58 and have yoyo'd dieted my whole life listening and trying everything that came up.
I've lost over 90 lbs so far since November using LCHF and intermittent fasting. I've read Dr Fung's Obesity Code and it just makes so much sense to me. Now I understand why!! Thank you for this interview. Watching these keeps me motivated. You two are brilliant! Many thanks 💞

[engc]

Thank you Peter for this incredible interview. I think Gary is one of the top science journalists. His book, Good Calories, Bad Calories, started my journey into nutrition and health.

[MsMachichi]

Excellent! Fascinating Gary Taubes! Hope he makes enough money so he can continue the battle!

[ts]

In response to the question, “How do we make people care about this subject”.

People already do care about being fat and their body composition. This is why we have gyms scattered everywhere across the United States. People inherently want to look appealing.

Currently their is a ground swell, grassroots movement of people avoiding carbohydrates and eating only meat. This movement has been created by results. One person tries the experiment and then ten or more people see the results and then try this themselves.

There will always be those people who are like drug addicts who want to keep eating their delicious carbohydrates for pleasure. But as time marches on and more people get thin and muscular just by changing their diet, then the world of nutrition will quickly change.

Thank you Gary Taubes!!! I read you book “Good Calories, Bad Calories. That book changed everything for myself and legions of others.

It has taken 15 years for the grip of the science and medical community brainwashing operation to be broken. But as a snow ball rolling and growing in size. We are quickly approaching a time when the lies will be peeled away and people will realize they been lied to all this time.

[jessideb]

A good question I would love to see addressed is that if fats are so bad (from mainstream doctors) then WHY does the ketogenic or Modified Atkins Diet help lesson to eliminate seizures in people with epilepsy? My daughter has had epilepsy since age 7 (she will be 50 this year) and now is seizure free, due to getting adequate fat, which her doctor from India seems to find it hard to back 100% as he is a vegetarian. I'm her care giver as she is mildly mentally challenged, and I'm careful with her diet. She likes salads but simple carbs are out and she has a lot of animal protein as well as whole coconut milk, heavy cream, and butter. From what I've read, the low carb, high fat diets stop more seizures then medicines with all of the side effects associated with seizure medicine.
I'd be very interested in hearing more about the Randall Effect.
Thank-you for this interview!

[gabrielekennedy]

I love these long thoughtful conversations. Thank you.

[mikepeterson-hexk]

Fascinating! Attia is a wonderful interviewer. I see so many people struggling with their weight. I have lost 70 pounds since quitting sugar and got rid of my sleep apnea. Others could do the same thing as me, but they are addicted. Until they deal with their carb/ sugar addiction, however, there’s going to be very little progress and people will continue to eat themselves to death.

[fredjones]

Peter: you were much better here at listening; and pausing; well done. It is an extraordinary skill; to ask as finely parsed a question as possible; with as few words as possible; then fall silent; silent; silent and let the person being interviewed have the space and time to reflect; and answer. For so many of those who interview; they seem to me to interrupt far too much; surely let the person who is being interviewed; have the space and time to tell their story. Cherish the silence after a brief question is asked; best wishes

[donaldlancaster]

Buy all of Mr Taubes books!
Mr Taubes Thank you so much ! You saved my life.

[Lily]

“The application of the current model is failing.” Brilliant!

[larsnarip]

Phatastic episode! Taubes comes out in all its colourful facets. The guy has so much more up his sleeve than the unfortunately too often one-dimensional "friend-foe" thinking of many food Taliban allows. And what a great interview job from Peter! It was a pleasure for me as a listener, how Peter gives the life and thinking of Taubes a wide space. Peter is becoming more and more an insightful and at the same time level-headed voice in the discussion about healthy nutrition, which has unfortunately become a trench warfare.

[annalisajohn]

Dr. Peter has taught me essentially how to think about health and step away from the clutter of information. He should be 10X more popular!

[sharicreamer]

I can't believe this team-up is finally happening. Best Monday ever.