What Did Mass Look Like Before Vatican 2? w/ Dr. Richard DeClue

Richard talks about why viewing pre-concilliar liturgies through todays lens is a mistake. Then he talks about some common Liturgical abuses in the 20th century.



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[ronsontag]

You don't know how good it was until it's gone

[levismadore]

I’m 79. In my childhood, I served as an altar boy. And, no, the mass was not rushed. I remember the phase of vesting where the priest recited a prayer before putting on each piece of liturgical vestment in the sacristy. I stood by him in silence; something important was about to take place. I had learnt and had taken the time to understand each response on my part. Some connection to the transcendant was in action. Today, most priests (other than the older ones) « say mass » as in « I have a mass to say ». The sacredness of the eucharist is absent. I frequently hear priests « say » the consecration prayer at speeds defying some publicities where a list of 12 stores is pronounced in seconds. Cheap grace.
Levy Shalom

[folofus]

The phenomena of “rushed Latin masses without music” before the council was largely a an Irish and Irish American parish phenomena, due to the fact that the English suppressed Catholic mass for so many years and the priests were accustomed to saying them hidden, quickly, without music, etc. it wasn’t really the case in other places.

[lindabonicelli]

I attended Catholic school and loved the Mass! We attended Mass before classes and it was just so comforting and spiritual. Of course, I didn't understand the Latin words yet, but I could feel the Holy Spirit in the words, and learned the meaning of the words as time went on. The old Latin Mass was beautiful. Now, I can't find ONE Catholic Church that gives a Latin Mass. It's so disappointing!

[Adam-fjpx]

Yep im with matt on this one, of course there were priests who rushed the mass and didn’t take it as seriously as they should've, but in that case there needed to be stricter command from bishops telling priests to take it seriously and more detailed teachings in seminaries, none of this required a brand new liturgy to be made (which ive seen some argue before). Also i was a bit confused in the discussion about the low mass about it being silent with no organ or gregorian chant, i dont think ive seen anyone claim that a low mass is like a pontifical mass, i often prefer going to the low mass over the high mass especially at winter because to me at least its quieter and more intimate with just a couple candles

[michaell]

One of the biggest misconceptions about Vatican II is that the council is wholly responsible for the reform of the Tridentine Mass. In reality the liturgical reforms trace their roots all the way back into the Liturgical Movement of the early 1900s, which was influenced by the earlier work of Pius X “Tra le Sollecitudini”.

[kyleturnage]

If rushing the Mass was bad before, then how much worse is the Novus Ordo which cuts out large portions of prayers (invocation of St. Michael, Ss. Peter and Paul, and omits some prayers entirely? Or the institution of Eucharistic Ministers because communion "took too long"?

[catholicexplorer]

I’m from Ukrainian Catholic Church. Out liturgy was translated in Ukrainian from Church Slavonic, in the US into English. The liturgy itself stayed the same. I sheets wondered why they didn’t do the same for the Roman rite

[TamCloncey]

If everyone who frequents the novus ordo was as revenant about the liturgy as those who frequent the TLM, then all novus ordo masses would be just as beautiful and rightly ordered.

[JamesIdentity]

Lets assume what this guy says is true about the problems back then... The same problems persisted and are WORSE today in many places.

[Sunicarus]

I took my father (who altar served before Vatican II) to a TLM. He was so confused seeing the servers choreographed movements throughout the Mass. Because in all his years he had only ever served low Masses.

[professorlogos]

In my opinion the only thing that should have changed is that the TLM should have been translated to the vernacular. This has been the common practice of Eastern Catholic liturgies for centuries. There was no need for an entirely new liturgy.

[Desert-Father]

The pre-concilar mass had a lot of problems according to DeClue's grandmother is not a very persuasive argument to replace it.

[VeracityQuest]

Hey, I was there, our priests always said a very holy Mass. They said it fast because when you say the same words over and over, you say them really fast, thats all. Now, we had some holy terrors as priests, mean priests that would make ladies with children cry, etc., but they always did the mass wonderful. And the choir was spectacular, especially the sopranos and organ. I remember when we had the first english Mass, the stupid table, and the first saturday night Masses. It was awful!!!!

[SuperGeek]

Let's just keep in mind that many of the priests who were doing clown masses during the 70s were ordained before V2 and used to celebrate in the old form. When the old mass was the norm, it was treated as nothing out of the ordinary. You would find the best and the worst. It happened quite often for parishes to celebrate high mass only during Christmas and Easter. Many people went to mass by tradition or social pressure, some guys became priests just because it was a sign of social elevation. By comparison, traditional masses today are very high quality, although some accidents still happen like low masses being rushed or mumbled. Overall, throughout the ages, the Church has always suffered. Nowadays, problems are just different from what they used to be. Let's not despair over nostalgia for a time most of us didn't experience.

[watermain]

I remember the Latin Mass well, being 75 YO. I served Mass hundreds of times. Those were better times to be a Catholic for sure.

[stephenlight]

What is this guy talking about? I attended the Mass as a boy and never felt it was rushed or that no one was not paying attention. What rubbish! There are far fewer attendees paying attention to the husk of a Mass we have been left with. The entire reverence and mystery has been swept away. Might as well attend a Lutheran service! (Postscript: Our parish had a large majority of Low Masses, and only the occasional High Mass. Just added for clarity)

[DanyTV]

In Latin America happened all he is saying. Just imagine indigenous or low education people completely just not understanding the Mass at all. My grandmother used to tell me she just prayed the Rosary then because she just don't understand mass, and yes, it was (and sadly is) rushed.

[christopher]

It looks as if neither of you can recall the traditional Mass as it was in practice before the later changes. In my parish, in a county town in the UK, the main Sunday Mass was sung by a priest and a lay choir to an organ accompaniment. The Gloria and Credo were sung together by choir and congregation in the Missa de Angelis (?) setting. I think settings of the other parts of the Mass varied. The standard of music was high. Before that Mass, there was one for Italians with congregational singing in Italian and several earlier low masses. In those days there were four Jesuit priests who served that church. I used to serve at an early low mass at a local convent where one of those priests would visit, as was the case regularly on weekdays also. I had heard of something called a 'hunting mass' in earlier centuries which was guaranteed to be over in about 20 minutes, but I never encountered anything like that. There was always an instruction on Sundays at the convent mass, and at the sung mass in the parish church. (There may have been at the other Sunday masses there, but I don't know.) The 'instruction' was just that. The Archdiocese stipulated a topic for each Sunday and that was followed except on the few occasions when a pastoral letter from the Archbishop was to be read out.

Low masses were prayerfully silent in my experience. The collect, epistle and gospel could be followed by means of translations in a missal. It wasn't necessary to follow exactly each of the prayers that the priest said silently. I think it was probably useful to concentrate on just one or two, using them as starting points for one's own prayers. Hymns were confined to Rosary and Benediction on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday evenings in the parish church. There was always an organ accompaniment. Of course, no guitars or other band instruments were even thought of as possible accompaniment in those days. There was quite enough volume without the need for any microphones, except possibly in the pulpit - I'm not sure about that.

Since the changes I don't think I have ever attended a traditional mass, but I have been fortunate until very recently to be able to go into London where I could find a novus ordo mass celebrated with dignity and beauty - and with a professional choir and organist. My movements have become more restricted and I am now experiencing, almost for the first time, the fare provided by a local parish church. What I miss above all is a mass without distractions. Trying to sing vernacular English to plainchant just doesn't work. This is especially true of prayers sung by the priest. (The words are easier to follow if simply read aloud.) I can occasionally enjoy robust hymns that I sang when at school and as a choirboy in an Anglican church, but more modern tunes sound 'wet' - to use an old schoolboy expression. I agree completely with those critics who reject the 'hymn sandwich' by which every parish seems to drag out a novus ordo mass.

On the whole, I think I have been quite fortunate up to now. I wonder if it's legiitimate to offer up presence at some celebrations of mass as mortification?

[ltngrk]

Say what you wish, the old Mass, rushed or not, was for grown-ups--and men especially didn't feel so embarrassed by subtly (or not so subtly) forced emotion. Nor were homilies the rhetorical equivalent of felt-board messages for kindergartners. My grandmother (born 1900) told me that, yes, her mind wasn't always on the altar during Mass...because she was saying her Rosary. Her mind might not have been up there but her heart was. Rushed? Maybe sometimes. But she believed those old masses were always reverent. Always. Dr. DeClue says there wasn't always music: SOUNDS GREAT TO ME! Sure, I'd prefer chant to no music at all, but must there always be music? My grandmother also said the old masses were at least PEACEFUL. Really. Is it too much to ask for busy, distracted laymen that ONE HOUR out of the week be dedicated to transcendence with quiet, even pensive silence? Yes, the Novus Ordo is valid, but it's also inferior. I'm afraid this good man is making an empty point.