Silvery Barbs vs. Legendary Resistance D&D 5e

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[emuman]

Silvery Barbs isn't forcing the creature to make a second saving throw, it's forcing a reroll. And Legendary Resistance has already determined that, regardless of the roll, that individual saving throw is a success.

[MaMastoast]

Regardless of this specific interaction, this spell is incredibly strong, specifically at later levels where casters may not have a ton of good uses for their lvl 1 slots. The reroll effect by itself is strong, but giving an ally advantage ontop is simply amazing.

I do think you're right btw. You can force the creature to reroll, but the result doesn't matter because it has chosen to succeed regardless of the roll.

[Indestructoboy]

Thanks for the shoutout Chris!!! I’m in agreeance with your interpretation, because it’s definitely the most common sense RAI interpretation. It’s just the fact that this could be called into question that I take issue with and I think deserves clarification via errata.

[FrostLeaf]

Can’t say I was expecting a 4:30 AM video but hey, kinda digging it

[DemoBytom]

Jeremy Crawford confirmed on Twitter/SA that Legendary Resistance is a response to a failed saving throw. Meaning the roll was resolved and the result was a failure.
"Legendary Resistance is used in response to failing a saving throw. The trait doesn't care how that save was failed."
-- Twitter

The creature failed the saving throw with it's roll so it doesn't trigger Silvery Barbs. Then it can choose to use Legendary Resistance to succeed on the save, which does not invoke or involve any rolls - so Silvery Barbs does not have any rolls to force a reroll on, and thus cannot be used to override LR in any way.

[BabooninCargos]

There's really two kinds of "success" that aren't parsed properly in the rules: auto-success and rolled-success. Normally the distinction isn't going to come up, but sometimes stuff like this happens. RAW, Silvery Barbs triggers on "success", which technically covers both types, but only affects one of them because it calls for a re-roll. It would similarly activate and then fail if used against a Sorcerer's Careful Spell or Evoker Wizard's Sculpt Spell. (Sorry, enemy casters) If LR instead said "may choose to auto-succeed instead" and SB said "when a creature rolls a successful check, attack, or saving throw", it'd be much clearer.

It reminds me of strict RAW on Divine Smite with unarmed strikes, where you can activate the feature because it's a "weapon attack", but it doesn't add radiant damage because it's not an "attack with a weapon". Future-proofing a TRPG is hard and hopefully 2024e will clean a few of these up.

[phonepolice]

Also, as a non-patron I appreciate this getting posted quickly given how much people have been worrying about how fractals and silvery barbs are going to destroy the game. Hopefully your standing in the community and analysis here helps people chill out a bit at least until after players start actually trying to do crazy things with the book.

[DaDunge]

Sounds like a reasonable interpretation but that doesn't change that Silvery Barbs is still up there with the shield spell as the strongest first level spell in the game. Which one them is more powerful is a bit situational. Shield is a bit more reliable but Silvery barbs has more utility.

[thedruski]

This should be a 3rd level spell since it has no saving throw. It being a 1st level spell is absurd. Forces a save reroll requiring you to take the lowest die AND gives an ally advantage, all from 60 ft away with no save at all. In one turn, a 1st level bard could cast this, healing word, and vicious mockery. That would result in forcing an enemy reroll, giving yourself or an ally advantage, healing an ally, doing psychic damage, and giving a future disadvantage to an attack roll in a single turn, at 1st level.

Considering this spells lack of saving throw and no need for concentration, I'd say it's easily on par with Bestow Curse since you can use Silvery Barbs and still cast another spell or two.

[TheClericCorner]

I'm glad you laid this out for us! I still think it would have been nice to include something like "this spell does not effect legendary resistances" or something similar to avoid confusion

[marcusoconchur]

I'll be honest, I don't really read the spell the way you've explained it, but the way you've explained it is actually balanced and is presumably the intended way for it to work. Love seeing content on the new book before it's even out :)

[Sean-fokg]

I totally agree with you about legendary resistances. An interesting thing with this spell, though. It’s scales up like crazy without having to up cast it.

Here’s what I mean. Just suppose you cast Dominate Monster, a Level 8 spell, and the enemy succeeds. Well, you get to try again at the cost of a Level 1 spell. It’s the mechanical equivalent of casting a level eight spell twice. And as a cherry on top, you get the other benefit of having advantage on the next save or attack roll.

[effinninja]

One of the most important guidelines in the game for interpreting the rules is “specific beats general.” Legendary Resistance specifically states that the failed saving throw becomes a success. That’s it.

What is actually really potent about Silvery Barbs is that for creatures with advantage on saving throws, it makes them roll a third die AND they have to pick the lowest die of the three! It turns advantage into super disadvantage.

Also, DMs should not worry about this in their games. If players get trigger happy with it, just remember that the enemies can start using it too. Also, since Silvery Barbs is a spell with a range of 60 feet it can be Counterspelled; which means you can throw a save or suck spell at a PC, use a reaction to try to make them fail, and then they have to burn a third level slot to combat a first level spell.

[Adurnis]

This is the weirdest interaction I’ve seen all week, and I went to an all-night grocery store.

[Veradun]

While I started this analysis in complete disagreement with Treatmonk here, by the end I mostly came to agree with the interpretation with one exception. While I don’t know which is correct legendary resistances I feel are primarily viewed as disregarding the roll entirely not essentially lowering the save DC to make whatever the roll was a success. I’m sure I don’t fully grasp the implications of either decision and the effects it might have, but if there is a clarification this is what it should address.

[texteel]

legendary resist never read like that to me. It was always like this:
"If the monster fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead - disregarding the roll itself."
This is the first time that i hear your interpretation of
"If the monster fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead - by keeping the outcome of the roll for future references but treating it as a success"

EDIT: its possible I completely misinterpreted what you were saying, will rewatch later when im less tired

[Aether_Veilborne]

I see it as Legendary Resistance is unaffected by the spell, because LR looks at the final result and not the roll specifically.

You can force them to reroll their attack/save/skill roll all you want, but you're just replacing the roll, not the final result.

However you are still forcing the reroll, so your ally gets their advantage, since Silvery Barbs doesn't care if the target succeeds or not at the end.

[Metheny]

My interpretation is the Legendary Resistance is irrespective of the particular dice roll. The creature simply chooses to succeed a failed save.

So the creature would have already had to fail the save in the first place. Using Silvery Barbs would not matter since it just allows the creature to roll another d20. The interaction has already been resolved.

You can decide to use Silvery Barbs in response to the initial d20, not a successful save. So the point that LR is used, the window for Silvery Barbs to be used has already closed.

[mistajames]

Aberrant Mind can cast this with 1 SP after level 6. This spell is so obviously busted, it’s insane.

[djaevlenselv]

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