How 'Thoughtful' Mormons Stay in the Church - Dan McClellan Part 3 | Ep. 1803

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Dan is back to discuss how informed, intelligent Mormons can still believe and participate in Mormonism.


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00:00:43 How could someone intelligent still believe in the Mormon Church
00:03:47 Dan does not discuss his personal beliefs on social media
00:04:57 What we label as religion, side effects of human evolution
00:15:57 Deceased loved ones
00:18:55 Rituals
00:26:40 Predisposed to believe in Deity
00:36:00 Theodicy is the Problem of Evil
00:40:17 Intense suffering in the world
00:45:50 Anthropomorphic corporeal concept of God
00:56:50 Joseph Smith’s God is different from the Orthodox Mormon beliefs today
01:04:55 Did Joseph Smith believe in a trinitarian view?
01:09:00 The First Vision
01:23:30 Atheism and Agnosticism
01:36:20 Summarizing Dan’s part 2 of Dan’s understanding of the Bible
01:37:50 How do informed believing Mormons look at Jesus? Son of God? Resurrection? Etc?
01:43:25 People reduce it down to the truthfulness of the truth claims
01:49:30 All Mormonism is cafeteria Mormonism
01:59:30 Is there an ethical way to be part of this organization?
02:02:50 Prophets in the scriptures
02:10:30 Does the Church still have value?
02:20:10 Truth Claims in Mormonism
02:25:10 We are not being asked to prove anything, we are asked to have a testimony of things
02:30:50 Members who stay but don’t believe all of the truth claims
02:38:29 Comparing the Book of Mormon to the Bible in its accuracy
02:44:40 Viewing scriptures as informed, thoughtful readers,
02:47:30 A more valuable approach to the text
02:51:08 Joseph Smith’s behavior - treasure digging and folk magic, peep stone, etc.
02:57:10 Joseph Smith’s polygamy
03:06:00 Higher and Lower Priesthood
03:15:00 Major changes, innovations, changes, are unavoidable
03:26:00 Being a feminist in the Mormon Church
03:30:20 Where would a dividing line be? For the harm in the Mormon doctrine?
03:39:44 Reasons why people stay
04:02:40 Is there any evidence of Joseph Smith using psychedelics?


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John I really appreciate how you can host this kind of show on your podcast. I also appreciate how Dan came on and talked with you for this many hours, for all of us to consume and digest.

I appreciate the lengthy unedited videos because it allows us all to see the human-ness of yourself and your guests.

I wish religious leaders and politicians would surrender themselves to such things.

Anyhow, thank you both and all the behind the scenes help.

AdamHuishStreaming
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This Dan McLellan series has been a, umm, "revelatory" experience for me. Thanks for uncovering this gem.

thomasgilson
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The sad part of this 'part three ' presentation, to me, is the obvious tip-toeing that both Dan and John felt they had to do - neither felt free to say, in straight terms, what he really thought, personally ; Dan, for his own personal reasons .... and John, so as not to make things awkward for Dan. This highlights the ever-present elephant in the room - that if they ( particularly Dan ) do express their real opinions in straight terms, they risk reaping the wrath of the LDS church, with all the possible repercussions in their personal and family lives. Very few statements were made by either Dan or John without taking time and great thought before speaking. It's difficult for those of us who live well away from Utah to fully grasp how careful LDS members / ex members in ' Zion ' have to be.

allanjeffrey
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My impression is that Dan wants to be a force for good and change within the church, and how he justifies it isn't really up to anyone else.

I can see that. I couldn't do it, but i understand the impulse.

matejoh
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When I was a young man an elder in my ward told me that the stars are celestialized planets and that gods live on them. I remember being awed by the idea, but a thought then quickly entered my mind and I innocently asked him, "What about our sun?"
He replied that our sun is indeed a celestialized planet but that whether or not a god lives on it is a mystery we're not meant to know.
I thought about this as I learned about astronomy, learned about the sun and what it's made of and how it operates, learned about what we know of the actual life cycles of stars. I learned about what the actual surface of our sun is like. It wasn't long before I realized that what my elder friend told me was an absurdity, impossible to believe. People will be quick to say things like, "That was never doctrine!" but the church--all churches in fact that I'm aware of--are chock full of such absurdities. Like the Catholic priest who holds up a cracker, rings a bell, and declares it to be the body of Christ, a thoughtful person is left looking at it and thinking, "It's still a cracker."
I think it's hard for a "thoughtful" person to stay in the church without engaging in some serious mental compartmentalization gymnastics, and I think that's the only way to do it.

lance
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I didn't expect to get so emotional at the end of this and John and Dan mutually thanking and supporting each other. Religion has been a sore spot for me for many years. It warms my heart to hear people speak honestly and kindly to one another on such difficult issues.

pnwmeditations
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Enjoyed the discussion very much. However, I came away with the sense that Dan spent 4 hours carefully explaining that his beliefs are irrational. I'm a bit confused about what he actually thinks at this point.

russwilde
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John, as an active member of the church trying to hold on to her faith, I appreciate you facilitating this conversation and asking hard questions. Many of the questions you asked were my own. I actually feel very satisfied with many of Dan’s answers to these questions and I feel at peace continuing in a church that I must accept is not wholly perfect but slowly moving towards changing for the better. Thank you for this interview.

heaoakley
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Through these 3 episodes Dan has very clearly made the case that there is no logic or reason to believe the church is true. However he finds value himself in the community.

lhyde
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One of the best Mormon stories episodes that I've seen! I see that it's not to the taste of my fellow commenters but I thought the discussion on what constitutes religion and the ways communities operate was interesting

jojones
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I enjoyed this episode as others.
Everybody is different. Some people can cut the church off and be ok and some are not able to without going into a depression. If you do decide to leave the church, wean off. Don’t just cut it off and leave.
There are many who attend the Christian churches and they do not believe all the teachings being taught. But they enjoy the community.
I say, stay or stay until you have a replacement. Don’t cut it off and don’t have another community or place to fellowship.
Don’t give up!
Be blessed!

queendove
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Very very apologetic response to many of the later questions. I wonder what’s holding him back from opening up about his beliefs. The beautiful people in the live chat have helped me not get too frustrated with this one

elispiller
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Dan is awesome. Love hearing from him. Thanks, John, for bringing him on again!

eliaskurban
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The dichotomy that’s the church (Jesus and god appearing, B of M, priesthood restored, the church being only True one) has been established by the Church. We didn’t. I understand what Dan is saying. It makes sense. But we are faced with black and white issues as a badge of faith and membership.

markj.williams
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What a frustrating episode. Thanks for all of the hard work, John.

MrsSoapAndClay
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I've never heard a defense of religion that begins with evolutionary psychology. This guy is a gem.

kpwillson
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I love the views Dan put forth in this. I do understand this is not necessarily his personal beliefs, however, I wonder if he has ever tried to argue any of these positions with his church leadership. From my experience, if he seriously tried to argue these things he would be seriously "put in his place, " so to say. That was my experience. The last bishop I seriously spoke with made it clear that not toeing the line with the official positions of the church was absolutely required. When I said, "I think they [the apostles and prophets] are wrong, " he sent me to the stake president to see if I should be excommunicated.

ryanhollist
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Seeing this on the upturn of a couple years existential and faith crisis. I feel like it may have given me a couple of the missing pieces i needed. Thank you Dan :)

Easy_Tea
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I’m sorry, but his “personal take is beyond the scope of this series” of 13+ hour interviews? (2:25:55)
I don’t buy it.
What is the point of being this educated, this thoughtful and this articulate if all it leads to is stasis?
I’m sure this series of interviews was helpful to someone, but it wasn’t to me especially at this moment in time.

I would be very interested in a follow up interview in about 5 years. I would be very surprised if he is able to maintain this (for me) untenably neutral position for long.

doloresmiller
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Credibility Enhancing Displays at 20:34. Another example is tithing where members boast they pay tithing on their gross income (before taxes, health insurance and other deductions). It means the member feels they are more loyal to this commandment than a person who pays on net income.

BunnyWatson-kw