The Hobbit: Battle of Five Armies - SU&SD Review

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[acerumble]

As an old man who plays WWII wargames, I can attest to the accuracy of Matt's observation. My friends and I have played a game called Squad Leader for 30 years, have innumerable stories, remembrances and reflections on the scenarios played, but except for a small handful of times can honestly say we have no idea which player actually won which particular game. That means, of course, that we all win every time we play

[wilsonhuang]

The first ever SUSD video I ever saw was your review of War of the Ring and it was subsequently the first ever board game I purchased as an adult. This happened during the first lockdown in Melbourne, Australia in 2020. Though it was incredibly daunting learning all of the rules and taking an entire hour to just set up this immense game in a tiny shoebox room, ever so slowly me and my housemate started to forget about the world that was falling apart around us, and got sucked right back into a world of childhood nostalgia trying to get a silly little ring across Middle Earth.

I can’t remember how many times we played, or who won which game. All I remember are the heightened emotions that quaked in that room; the crushing despair that ripped through you when a critical battle was lost and an entire game long strategy fell apart before your eyes, or the exhilarating thrill of white knuckled success when you somehow managed to pull off a plan hours in the making by the skin of your teeth. As stressful and frustrating as it was sometimes, this game brought me and my housemate so much fucking joy and a much needed distraction during the long months when we were couped up together during a global pandemic.

It helped to keep us sane, and from it bloomed a love and passion for board games that we never thought we would ever have. As sad as I am to hear that this game does not live up to War of the Ring (how could it?), I will forever be grateful to the team behind these games, and to you guys at Shut Up and Sit Down for helping me get through these last few years, and for somehow getting me to look back fondly on my time during lockdown.

You bow to no one. Thank you.

[MrGearsNTears]

Been playing wargames for 10 years and you hit the nail on the head.
One of the wargame matches I remember the most fondly, was a game of killteam where I got absolutely bodied.
From a purely competitive standpoint, I had bad dice luck early, then failed to adjust to the new table state.
But in me and my opponents head? The elite scions of the imperium were tasked to hold the line against the plague ridden husks of nurgle. Equipped with re-breathers and hellguns, their confidence was high.
It was shattered moments after first contact, when accurate fire failed to even slow the laughing bloated warriors. Panic set in amongst the men who continued to fire volley after useless volley into the approaching horde. Men and women began to fall as rusted rounds tore into them, belching forth from filth covered weaponry.
Near the end, two remained. There fire finally began to cut down some of the enemy, the sheer weight of wounds splitting them at joints. But it was not enough.
The line fell, and the plague swept on.

Much more fun that way.

[mattball]

That outro is your finest work. Genuinely made me a little teary. The fact that humans are made of stories, and that we just constantly find and explore ways to tell them is something that absolutely should be celebrated.

[adnanilyas]

You guys helped me and a friend get War of the Ring (first video I saw from SUSD!) and I have to say, the stories that my friend and I made while playing were the best part. Talking about the time(s) my friend wasn’t paying attention and let me take a fort without a fight (because, it turns out, one CAN merely walk into Mordor!), or the time when I was able to guide Frodo & Sam all the way up to the steps of Mount Doom, only for Gondor to fall just before Frodo could destroy the ring, those tales are what really make the game compelling for me. And it’s a shame that you don’t see quite the same potential here in the Battle of Five Armies.

[btmurphy]

Damn Matt, that went from a genuine critique of Battle of Five Armies to an even more genuine discussion on gatekeeping and inclusion in this hobby. Absolutely loved it and I'm so happy to have people like you as a public face of board gaming.

[masseffectlvr]

So true about the relationship between war gaming and role playing games. I do a lot of war gaming, a lot of miniature games, and the story I imagine behind the mechanics brings me back for another round of play just as much as the experience playing. My brother and I have played war of the ring dozens of times and we always talk about it in the language of role playing. Two guards holding a siege against a full army isnt just a statistical abnormality of the dice, its brave defenders cutting down hordes of orcs to hold the gates closed. It's an engaging way to think about the game, and makes the fickle nature of luck based systems easier to swallow.

It can be easy to forget that any game's rules are just ways to help players interface with a simulation. Theoretically, when I sit down to play a game Im not a "player", im a cowboy or a thief or a politician or a merchant or an investigator; and I'm not rolling dice and drawing cards, I'm searching for clues, gathering resources, testing my skill against my rival, or running down a secret passageway. How well a game helps me suspend my disbelief is a big marker of how well I'm going to enjoy the game. It's dissapointing to hear BoFA might not live up to its predecessor in that regard, but I'll likely grab it anyway at least to have it in my collection.

Thanks for the great review as always

[jaytee]

I had a totally different experience. Those older men were (and often still are) the most welcoming people I've ever met in my life. They are usually terribly happy that you're interested in their very niche hobby, and more than thrilled to tell you about it and welcome you to the table.

[christopherblackburn]

As a long time watcher of SUSD I have gone on a journey of self discovery of what it means to be human in part through the medium of board games. However I want it clarified that my thing is more important and better than everyone else’s thing. Thanks for all the hard work.

[Skycroft]

I think you're absolutely right about much of the joy of wargaming being in the texture of exploring the setting and the kind of fanficcy alternate history you collaboratively create and not just the tactics and strategy. For exactly that reason, Battle of the Five Armies feels too halfway to be good - still too complex and fiddly for a fun strategy game afternoon, but not deep enough to immerse yourself into the Legendarium like you can with War of the Ring.

[abhikan]

13:33
"Secretly, war games may have a lot more in common with role-playing games."
DnD litterally based off the war game chainmail:

[DrMcFly]

4:04 Matt saying "untold grief" is looking the happiest I have ever seen him

[apollolinaire]

The delivery of the line "The Bobbit, Little Bobbit in the Big City" made me cry I was NOT ready!

[jonathoncampbell]

I love the connection that Wargames are so similar to RPG's. Honestly, it's a good reminder that D&D originally sprung out of wargaming and despite 5e's focus accessibility and narrative potential, story and choice may have always been a part of that equation.

Maybe that's what we all really want in a game: The ability to make choices in a fictional game space that alter that world and make us feel important, smart, or badass.

[nozhki-busha]

I have played war games (WW2 mostly) since the mid 80s and you absolutely nailed the essence of wargaming outside of tournaments. It's all about the narrative with the winner/loser being secondary. Some of my favourite games were when I lost but that loss was the end result of an epic battle with an almost movie-like story.

[cirthador]

Love your videos and LOTR. I have rewatched your War of the Ring review 30 times over.

[Sputnik]

one of the best reviews on the channel not only for the detailed descriptions of what works and doesnt but obviously for that outro. it was honestly quite beautifully written.

[beebsman]

War of the ring was the first SU&SD video I ever saw! Watched it countless times since then. And my wife and I still play it regularly. We love the wonderful story it never fails to tell!

[deusex]

Was not expecting such on point and quite profound commentary about the nature of wargaming and board games in general.

Excellent stuff.

[MrTominous]

The Argably on paper bit made me laugh more than it had any right too.