Divine Foreknowledge vs. Human Freedom in Five Minutes

Is divine foreknowledge compatible with human freedom? Let's see if we can answer this in five minutes.

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THE USUAL...

[Akira-jdzr]

please do more of these shorter clips
i typically avoid hour long (or more) videos

[bonbon_nextlevel]

I am always in awe of how intelligent Joe is. I feel very lucky that I have found this channel. I liked this video and found it very useful!! <3

[rewrewrewrewr]

I remember when I saw Trents title and video the first time and thinking "Imagine if an atheist youtuber was equally as uncharitable, and said Theists cannot blame atheists for anything due to problems with foreknowledge (ignoring or dismissing views like molinism or simple foreknowledge)". Im glad you pointed this out in your video.

[amjiva]

My mother enjoyed it. So, I smashed the like button.

[Remiel_Plainview]

Joe, you're incredible man. Smart and funny. Keep up the work. Love from India.

[gingrai]

This was fun! It was a little like watching the Sicilian rant on the Princess Bride just before he drank the chalice with the iocaine powder in it😂

[radscorpion]

Sir, I DEMAND that you post more of your delightful classical music on your channel!

[danielboone]

The most majestic thing about this video is the angle of your eyebrows when you raise them. Oh, what a beautiful slope.

[itsyaboidaniel]

Wonderful video. Shows reliably how freedom is incompatible with perfect foreknowledge, because if it can't be helped, then how free is it? It somewhat reminds me of what Stephen Woodford (Rationality Rules) said which I'll paraphrase by saying the universe is either random (we can't control random) or not random (we can't control not random), which then extends to our choices, and there isn't any room for the "free" option because we have no control over our inner mechanisms in either case.

[JohnByler]

I think the problem comes when to say God “knew” something in the past. God does not experience time, therefore he cannot have known somethinf “before” it happened. For God, everything happened all at once, in one eternal now per se. Since God allows us to experience time, there is no contradiction between us making a choice in time and God, being outside of time, always knowing we would do so, since God experiences all of time at once.

[leslieviljoen]

But what if God is a passive observer of what you did when you were free? Sure this god may not intervene at all, but it seems reasonable that a person's free actions could be recorded and God could go back in time with the knowledge of them. Such is the advantage of not being in the same time line.

[logicalliberty]

a good argument, though I think the dependence response is also a good one

[periruke]

I think this argument works only if we have an erroneous view about God and his relation to time, or time in general.
Infallible comprehensive foreknowledge follows from Gods omniscience. Omniscience is often defined as knowing all true propositions.
God’s relation to time is fundamentally different from ours. Boethius defines eternity as a possession of life, a possession simultaneously entire and perfect, which has no end. Similar modern definitions could be found among B theory of time.
God's knowledge of events cannot really be called foreknowledge at all, because He doesn't seal the future rather He is aware of actions we freely do.


What do you think about this counter argument based on different theories of time and what do you think would be best a counter argument?

[wimsweden]

I lol'ed at the end. Serious question: If God exists, aren't I (or anything else) co-eternal with them from their perspective?

[Mentat]

This argument is excellent, if P1 is true. I think even Molinism is incapable of getting past this, while still affirming freedom. However, I deny premise 1, and recommend other theists do too, in favor of models of God that do not include exhaustive foreknowledge.

The issue that we could know something God doesn't seems to me to be a non-issue twice over. In the first place there are various models of God that already have this consequence (such as when people deny omnisubjectivity, so God doesn't know how it feels to lust, but your mom does...I kid, I kid). But, more importantly, I only know what I am going to do under certain conditions in which God could very well also know what I will do (as could an experienced psychiatrist who has been working with me for years). If I have a strong inclination or addiction, or if I am resolutely determined to accomplish something, then I know I will do it and God could know on a similar basis. But, no such basis could exist before I was born, or before I developed the in question.

[masoncouldwell]

Forgive me if I'm wrong or being ignorant of the argumentation, but if someone raised their hand at t, is it not because they wanted to? In that moment if in a possible world they chose not to raise their hand, this also would have been divinely foreknown by God. The only separating factor in each of these possible worlds seems to be the hand-raisers will; if in this moment the person is not being forced against their will to raise their arm - God's foreknowledge and man's will are in harmony. In my view (Molinism), God creates the world with the foreknowledge of every free-willed choice every person will make in every situation; crafting the circumstances such that his will is done ultimately through this leeway freedom. Premises 6 and 7 seem to be so punchy because you're right in that you're powerless to prevent what you have chosen to do by your own will. Please let me know if I'm missing something.

[Bhuyakasha]

You had me discombobulated for a second there, but only until recombobulation occurred via an insult to my mother.

[hudsontd]

Ya I'm a Open Theist, I would say mankind has Limited Free Will and God has Present Tense Foreknowledge NOT Exhaustive Foreknowledge of Future Contingents

[robertsaget]

knowledge doesn't abrogate freedom.

[predatorcrush]

Last few seconds of this video was wild.