Wayne Grudem on Roman Catholicism | Systematic Theology, 2nd Edition

Dr. Wayne Grudem (Distinguished Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies, Phoenix Seminary) lays out some differences between the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and those of evangelical Protestantism.

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[williammarinelli]

Your views on Augustine being a really great guy align with Catholicism.

[ronaldbraswell]

The nun Mary you say, "she had genuine trust of Jesus in her heart her whole contenance and conversation day after day were witness to that". How can someone who thinks they will go to pergatory have genuine grust in Jesus. Someone who actually has genuine trust in Jesus, will reject the notion of Pergatory because they believe that Jesus actually paid the price for all of their sins. The thought of a person atoning for their own sins in Pergatory is repulsive to a true believer. Absolutely repulsive! Mary the nun needed to be evangelized and called out of Roman Catholicism, not promoted as a true believer.

[chrismachin]

Wayne Grudem talks about his encounter with a Roman Catholic nun named Mary.Tslking about purgatory, ”you are in for an amazing surprise when you die”( or words to that effect) Later talking about praying with Catholics, ” you could see they had genuine faith in Christ”( or words to that effect)
Complete faith in Christ, but requiring an “Alta christus” to give them the last rites doesn’t give the indication of a total trust in Christ as a saviour.
If I left my Church and joined the Roman Catholic Church and followed their teachings, would it make any difference to my salvation?
Should we not be trying to save Catholics, or are they all going to have a pleasant surprise when they die?

[SaltyPalamite]

I always get a kick out of how Evangelical Protestants always refer to Catholics as "ROMAN Catholics, " as if it is some kind of pejorative.

[LM-jzvh]

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument.

*Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do:* He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing— *Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome.* Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, *making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews.* (1 Cor.1:23)



The end is near?

*The Bible’s New Testament contains a drumbeat of promises that Jesus is ready to return any day now, implying that it will happen so soon that it would be wise to keep it in mind when making any kind of life decision. But it didn’t happen.* The following is a sample of verses professing this theme:

Matt 10:23: [Jesus said to his disciples] *‘When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next;* ***for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel,  before the Son of man comes’.*** (They fled through the towns but the Son of Man never came)

Matt 16:28: [Jesus said to the disciples], *‘Truly, I say to you, * ***there are some standing here*** *who will not taste death* before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom’.

Mark 9:1: And he [Jesus] said to them [the disciples], *‘Truly, I say to you, * ***there are some standing here*** *who will not taste death* before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power’.

Mark 13:30: *[After detailing events up to end of world, Jesus says]* ‘Truly, I say to you,  ***this generation will not pass away*** *before all these things take place’.*

Mark 14:62: And Jesus said ***[to the high priest – died 1st cent. AD]*** ‘You will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven’. (The high priest died and never saw the Son of Man)

Rom 13:12: The day is *at hand.*

1 Cor 7:29: The appointed time has grown very short; from now on, *let those who have wives live as though they had none.* (Funny thing to say if you didn’t think the end was imminent)

1 Cor 7:31: For the form of this world is *passing away.*

Phil 4:5: The Lord is *coming soon.*

1 Thess 4:15: *We who are alive, who are left* until the coming of the Lord.

Hebrews 1:2: *In these last days* he has spoken to us by a Son.

Hebrews 10:37: For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and *shall not tarry.*

James 5:8: The coming of the Lord is *at hand.*

1 Peter 1:20: He [Christ] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the *end of the times.*

1 Peter 4:7: The end of all things is *at hand.*

1 John 2:18: *It is the last hour;* and as you have heard that antichrist is coming.

Rev 1:1: The revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e., the end of the world)…to show to his servants what must *soon take place.*

Rev 3:11: [Jesus said] ‘I am *coming soon’.*

Rev 22:6: And the Lord…has sent his angel to show his servants what must *soon take place.*

Rev 22:20: [Jesus said] ‘Surely I am *coming soon’.*

*It is puzzling to understand why Christianity survived the failure of this prediction. It is not ambiguous.* This would be like a rich uncle who promises to give you $10, 000 ‘very soon.’  Ten years pass and he still hasn’t given anything to you, but he still says he will do it very soon. Would you still believe that it will happen any day? No, you would realize that it is a false promise.  *For some reason, Christians cannot comprehend that they have been scammed. Jesus is not coming back, not tomorrow, not next year, not ever. But they still think it will happen any day.*


*Watch* Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Historical Lecture - Bart D. Ehrman on YouTube

Google *"13x Jesus was wrong in the Bible – Life Lessons"*

Google *"End Times – Evil Bible .com"*

Google *"The End of All Things is At Hand -  The Church Of Truth"*

Google *"Resurrection – Fact or Myth - Omission Report"*

Google *"What’s Missing from Codex Sinaiticus, the Oldest New Testament? - Biblical Archaeology Society"*

Google *"The “Strange” Ending of the Gospel of Mark and Why It Makes All the Difference - Biblical Archaeology Society"*

Google *"ex-apologist: On One of the Main Reasons Why I Think Christianity is False (Reposted)"*

Google *"Why Jesus? Nontract (August 1999) - Freedom From Religion Foundation"*

Google *"272: JESUS’S 5200 AUTHENTIC WORDS – zingcreed"*

Google *"43: IS THE FOURTH GOSPEL FICTION? - zingcreed"*

Google *"Jesus Predicted a First Century Return Which Did Not Occur - by Alex Beyman - Medium"*

Google *"Jesus’ Failed Prophecy About His Return - Black Nonbelievers, Inc."*

[alexjoneschannel]

The declaration of righteousness is not alien but intrinsic. God's declaration is based on reality not a fiction. Catholicism is correct

[LM-jzvh]

"When we say…Jesus Christ…was produced without sexual union, and was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, ***we propound nothing new or different*** *from what you believe regarding those whom you call Sons of God. [In fact]…if anybody objects that [Jesus] was crucified, this is in* ***common*** *with the sons of Zeus (as you call them) who suffered, as previously listed [he listed Dionysus, Hercules, and Asclepius].* Since their fatal sufferings are all narrated as not similar but different, so his unique passion should not seem to be any worse."

*Note how Justin (Martyr) is less of a fool than modern Christian apologists. He admits that differences don’t matter.* Since each and every one of the suffering and dying gods are slain by different means, one cannot argue the mytheme requires exactly the same means of death. “But Osiris can’t have inspired the Jesus myth because Osiris wasn’t nailed to a cross” is a stupid argument. The mytheme is simply death. Being killed. Suffering and dying. The exact mode of death can vary freely. It makes no difference to the existence and influence of the mytheme. It’s simply the particular instantiation of a generic abstraction. *And Justin’s argument (that Satan invented these fake religions to confuse people) entails Justin agreed the mytheme existed: indeed, it was demonically promulgated, multiple times. Intentionally.*

*Likewise, Justin notices the mytheme is not virgin birth, but sexless conception. Of which many examples had already been popularized in pagan mythology (there just happens to also have been examples of actual virgin born gods as well). And by his argument (that the Devil was deliberately emulating the Jesus mytheme, in advance), Justin clearly accepted the same principle for “rising again” after death:* the particular exact metaphysics of the resurrection could, like the exact method of death or conception, vary freely. The mytheme consists solely of the abstraction: returning to life. Somehow. Some way. We will say bodily, at the very least. But what sort of body (the same one, a new one, a mortal one, an immortal one), didn’t matter. *If it had, Justin would have made the argument that “those gods” weren’t really resurrected. But that argument, never occurs to him. Nor did it to any other apologist of the first three centuries.*

*Ancient Christians well knew there was nothing new about their dying-and-rising god. Not in respect to the mytheme.* Their claims were solely that his particular instantiation of it was better, and the only one that actually happened. *They didn’t make up the stupid modern arguments that dying-and-rising god myths didn’t exist or weren’t part of a common mytheme everyone knew about. For example, in the same century, Tertullian, in Prescription against Heretics 40, makes exactly the same argument as Justin. Funny that. They had better access to the evidence than we do. They knew what was really and widely the case. We should listen to them.*

Google *"Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier"*

Google *"Ehrman Errs: Yes, Bart, There Were Dying & Rising Gods - atheologica"*

Watch *"Dying & Rising Gods: A Response to William Lane Craig"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.

Google *"Virgin Birth: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier"*

Google *"5 Pagan Parallels to Jesus That Actually Aren’t Bullshit – Atheomedy"*

Google *"Christian Apologetics: The Art of Deceit – Atheomedy"*

Google *"Defending the Resurrection: It’s Easy if You Lie! - Atheomedy"*

Google *"Majority of Scholars agree: The Gospels were not written by Eyewitnesses – Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*

A good site written by an actual Biblical scholar.

Google *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei"*

Google *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history? -- by Dr Steven DiMattei"*

Also:

Google *"How Did The Gospel Writers Know? – The Doston Jones Blog"*

Google *"Yes, the Four Gospels Were Originally Anonymous: Part 1 – The Doston Jones Blog"*

Google *"Gospels Not Written By Matthew, Mark, Luke or John - The Church Of Truth"*

[tarks-ocyr]

Why not?Just say it like it is.And I love listening to you, but why not just say it like it is it's false teaching and blasphemy.The stuff that catholics teach and the book of jude specifically says the fate of people who preach false teachings about god's word, False teaching of God's word is the worst thing. A human can be it for with the blackness of darkness is reserved forever. Jude, 1:13 for which the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever. That is a
Terrible fate, and God will not deal lightly with people who falsify his word and lead people astray

[ericmchenryil]

Wayne you need to repent for signing that document with all those other Heretics. God bless you