LINGUIST Reacts – Will Neopronouns Stick Around?

#neopronouns #react #nonbinary #linguistics

sources:

the article about gender neutral novelties in the German language:

intro: 00:00 – 02:55
neopronouns will probably not stick around: 02:55 – 04:12
past pronoun novelties that didn’t stick: 04:12 – 05:43
spreading an ideology: 05:43 – 06:34
latinx and what gender are tables: 06:34 – 08:37
gender neutral german: 08:37 – 10:59

[LanaMarie]

That said, I would like to thank you all who left a like, a comment, or both on the »Reacting to the neopronouns of TikTok« video and others! Despite me singling out what I did here, an overwhelmingly large portion of your comments have been wonderful, positive and measured! Thank you! 💛

[tbone]

will they stick around? I mean are they really a thing now? Other than the .00001% of the population that actually use them now, the answer is no. Why are we enabling these weirdos?

[KizombaFusion]

In my language (Portuguese) as well as in ANY latin language (French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian), all things are either male or female. Asking to create gender neutral pronouns for any latin language would pretty much make everyone in these native languages not being able to speak the language anymore from the get go as that is embedded in every single sentence we speak. But hey, at least the table wouldn't be offended!

[renthearchangel]

On the neopronouns issue, like you've said in the previous video, a lot of changes in language are natural(-sounding, or -writing wise) and it's best to do it if it is "convenient".

For example, the entire writing system of Vietnam as a country was completely changed from Chinese characters and Nom characters (VN version of ideographic languages) into the "national language system". That is a very radical change, but it works because (1) the words and grammar structure stayed the same in spoken and written form and (2) it significantly simplifies the writing system into a logographic one, which is a lot easier to use. Some scholars have even argued that this simplification of the language significantly raised the literacy rate of the intelligentsia as well as intellectuals, who then fostered the nationalist movements against the intentions of the French, using it as a system of control.

For a less drastic example, the Filipinos use "mamsir" in speech which is a shortening of "mam and sir" (typically used as "hello mam, hello sir" and changed into "hello mam/sir"). Mamsir by itself is "gender-neutral" and rolls off the tongue quite nicely and conveniently. It is a formal way of saying "hello you" basically.


Compared to some of these examples, neopronouns don't go off as smooth to say/hear or even all that convenient. Neopronouns could work if it is convenient enough. What's more special about all of this is that both examples I used are from two entirely different contexts but both just "work": a literal colonial-imposition on an entire language with an entirely different writing style (and not just alphabet, because even some of the words and tendencies of the French language itself are still around in modern VN); and a natural process of simplifying in addressing normal day-to-day life. So in the end, neopronouns can stick and probably will stick, but the current ones are just stupid, inconvenient to use even for their own authors and unnecessary.

[jenswurm]

When I used to think of people who get upset if one fails to use the titles by which they want to be called even when talking about them without them around, the mental image used to be entitled royalty.

Now it's a certain type of tiktoker.

[Lukas-Trnka]

There is one thing that people often don't seem to realize and that is: Personal pronouns are NOT a private thing. Personal pronouns are a communal thing. It is a tool of language. Therefore, a person cannot really demand others to use some special pronouns just based on some internal feelings. That would impede our ability to communicate to each other. Language must be usable in our daily life.


And as for the table: "Stůl" is HE in Czech language. However, a chair (židle) is SHE, unlike in German where it is also HE. I remember it used to confuse me, when I started to learn the language.

[cirewillen]

Thank you, Lana, for bringing this up from a linguistic perspective. Even as a student of linguistics myself, I still never made the connection here, and yet I often wondered why it was so difficult to speak these new pronouns correctly. I HAVE wondered how all of this pronoun stuff would work in another language that had gendered nouns. I can't imagine having to work with some of these pronoun-pushing people in a a professional environment. Please continue your linguistic reaction series!

[frandsfrydendal]

In Danish we actually have four genders: Masculine, feminine, a common gender (a bit like a gender halfway between the two) and a neuter (no gender at all).
Masculine and feminine gender and pronouns are used for humans - and for animals you love. Most other animals are common gender - but people's own dog they often call "he" or "she" - otherwise it is a kind of "it", that English doesn't have. And so on... In standard Danish things are either common or neuter gender - with a couple of exeptions. A ship may be called "she" - with another exception, if they are war ships, they may be called "he".
Tables are neuter - since you ask.

I believe Old Norse had 3 genders like German - and some dialects in Denmark still have that, and not really a fully common gender.
I would really appreciate if you as a linguist would make a CLEAR point out of discerning between sex, gender role, and gender. In America one reaction to the chaos of woke gender theory that actually claims numerous sexes (including a confusion of gender and sex) is to say that there are only two genders. Only two genders is just as wrong as the idea that there are are numerous sexes.

In Denmark in women's liberation the 1970'es and onwards we had a useful distinction between sex (Danish - køn) - which was immediately understood as biological sex, and gender role ("kønsrolle") which was immediately understood as a social construct and a social pressure to conform to these gender roles and f.example dress accordingly.
For use in grammatic context we also say "køn" (sex) in popular Danish - but language professionals sometimes use the term "genus" - which can of course has nothing biological to it - nor any social pressure for things to conform to whatever gender role a stupid person would assign to it.

I think it would be very helpful if people like you - well versed in language, would clarify that there are (at least) three completely different levels of meaning that are verbalized with a more or less consistent polarity between "he" and "she":

"Sex" - which is biological, and doesn't change.
Gender role", which is a social construct that relates to sex but changes over time, and
Genus - gender which is a grammatical phenomenon that observes that tables and chairs and other non-sexed things appear to have something that sounds or in writing a looks little like sex, but which shouldn't confuse an otherwise intelligent person.

Maybe it would be interesting, if you would make a video that clarifies the number genders in different languages - I believe I have read, that there are languages that have no gender distinction at all (only one "gender") - and illustrate it with something from the answer to any intelligent child, who asks: "Where do the little babies come from?"

[Skepticallady]

My native language is Spanish and the table is: La mesa, feminine.

The gender neutral pronouns are an Anglosaxon invention of bored college kids who need to say they are oppressed by something and that something is "language" woow first world problems, right? Also they want to import these ideas to other countries and if we say "hey we don't like them, it goes against how our language works" they call us bigots, but after the same students complain about the American government interfering in other countries, so ironic. I say this as a gay woman before someone tells me I'm homophobic or something similar.

[nmugzqy]

That sort of changes are pushed quite forcibly in Germany now.

There are newspaper houses using patterns like Freund*innen, even public TV channels.

People of a leftish persuation have started to use it in speaking, even in more traditional settings like church.

Publishing houses in part push it and are themselves pushed to a degree by the EU.

The societal left calls everyone nazi who criticizes it, and even the moderate right mostly prefers to just not discuss it.

CNN, MSNBC and other channels, together with the younger half of the Democrats base all partly supporting shapes like latinx would be closer to the reality.

This one will be hard to "just go away".

[erichamilton]

It's also worth noting that this movement started in the Anglosphere. English is effectively a genderless language---unusual.among European languages, which usually mark for gender. In fact, the pronouns are marked for sex not gender. Therefore, English speakers tend not to grasp gender because they don't have it.

[jonfeuerborn]

I thought you were much more direct in this video on the problems associated with neopronouns than in "Linguist reacts to neopronouns of TikTok". I really enjoyed the bit about the nonbinary portmanteau of aunt and uncle in German. Reminds me of the time my curiosity got the better of me and I looked into what 2S meant when I came across its use in conjunction with LGBTQ+. I knew I had ventured too far when I came across the unironic use of the term "indigiqueer" as a preferred substitute for two-spirit due to potential confusion with the latter term in the context of Western gender identities.

as a triple minority myself (disabled, native american, and homosexual) I think it's a bit ridiculous that linguistic rules have to be rewritten to please a very small (but very loud) minority of people. I can say as a native English speaker myself that even using they/them to refer to singular person is very ungainly and leads to a lot of confusion over who is being referred to. As an example, one of my colleagues, a very sweet older lady, has a grandson that identifies as non-binary. She was telling me a story about him being in a dance troupe, and as the story went on it became more and more confusing over who she was talking about, the dance troupe or her grandson, since she tried to use they all the time. Another aspect that I would like to point out is that I have yet to hear a single person use neopronouns or they/them pronouns consistently. A he/she her/him always slips in, I just feel it's a very unnatural way of speaking.

[katanafourzeronine]

No, they won't and they shouldn't. People are expecting us to change for them when they wouldn't do the same for us; hard pass.

[musicandfanart]

In Norwegian, the word "table" is actually neuter, meaning it does not have a gender classification as either male or female.

[NoBillsOfCrashDamage]

Tables are labelled as feminine in Spanish (La mesa).

Gender neutral language is already being pushed here by replacing a/o with -e, but it only recently started.

I remember @ was used in the past as a way to simplify things, especially among school students, but no one took it seriously and otherwise wrote normally. Something similar happened with X.

That said, this woke craziness is very much secluded to an incredibly small group. My country doesn't pander to LGBT+, they are just accepted.

[westower]

Some subcultures and subgroups might keep them around as cultural slang, but for the most part neopronouns as they are used in the Anglephone cultures right now have no real practical daily usage. This will lean toward them being abandoned as a fad.

[mnsor]

In Italian we have two versions for the word table:
Il tavolo (m) is just a piece of furniture.
La tavola (f) is the table once it's set up for the meal

[AmaNotaGogo]

I identify as a herd of tables, some are French, some are German and there is even a Slovenian table in the herd (you heard). 🤣🙃

[comradecid]

as a non-native multi-international resident of the united states, i find this lecture thought-provoking.

as a progressive, i hope that any assertions of my american friends and allies, no matter how oblique, might always be understood as being borne of good intentions.

however, as a brit shouldering the full spectrum of "historical consequence and repercussion", i cannot help but wonder: "are we missing something? is there perhaps some other dialogue that could be had?"

in other words, "are we... the baddies?"