I'm Quitting Pathfinder 2e Because of This Issue

It's hard to be honest with yourself sometimes when it comes to something you care about. But today, I am going to talk about my big issue with Pathfinder 2e's game mechanics, and why, after over a year of playing this game, I've decided to put it back on the shelf for good. This is why I'm quitting Pathfinder 2e.

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[robertsilvermyst]

When you love something, you critique it honestly because you want to see it succeed.

[PaizoInc]

Hi Cody! Aaron in Marketing and Media here. Rather than send you an email, I think transparency might be valuable. Thanks for your feedback, as always. Just so everyone knows, this constructive criticism does not mean you are "off the list." Pathfinder Second Editon was designed with a core that could be expanded and developed for years. With the Bestiary 3 releasing early next year, it will complete what the designers consider to be the "core rulebooks" of Pathfinder. Future hardcovers will be expanding and developing that core. So that is when it will get even more interesting. Will the Secrets of Magic and other unannounced books open up new options that you and your players will find engaging? Or will the mechanical core frustrate you? Do our designers have counterpoints to your points? I propose that those are questions worth exploring when the time comes. Peace, joy, love, and hope to you and yours in these challenging times. Thanks, Shanks

[juangerritsen]

Civilisation game-designer, Soren Johnson, once wrote on his blog, “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.”

[sleepinxonxbed]

I really wish I didn't watch this video 2 years ago, it was a huge mistake. I admit I didn't give pathfinder2e a chance because this turned me away. I was about to walk away from DnD because I was already burnt out from 5e before the OGL debacle. Now here I am a month into playing pf2e, using what I have from the humble bundle, and I genuinely am enthusiastic about ttrpg's again

[Nemhyz]

Just give us the real reason. Making easy buzzfeed style 5e content is way more profitable.

[stordarth]

"Combat is stale because you do the same thing every round."

3.5 edition fighter: "First time?"

[johncrawford]

“Illusion of choice-“ *double ad from Youtube*
Glad to see the algorithm is evolving a sense of humor!

[almisami]

The thing is, none of your complaints are exclusive in Pathfinder 2 and, honestly, are often worse in 5e depending on the class.

[PyroMancerk]

I don't see how this doesn't apply to DnD 5e. The lack of customization in 5e has me seeing the same build over and over. Then in combat it's often unload full attack action over and over. Spell casters often have the most variety in options but at the core in most DnD encounters it seems like most fights were melee rushes in and hits it with stick and range fires arrows/spells just sitting back. Thanks to the OA range/caster units can't flee easily and things feel more bogged down in 5e as once combat starts units are locked down with little freedom of movement. So 5e combat becomes a generic slug fest.

[markadkins]

Cody: " 2e combat is too repetitive."

5e Warlock: "Hold my... ELDRITCH BLAST!!"

Okay, so now for my serious thoughts:

I think this is a major reason that Retraining rules are a core part of Pathfinder 2e. Optimized combat gets repetitive in any system, but having accessible rebuild rules can allow variance without punishing players mechanically.

Age of Ashes even says that it assumes lots of downtime, meaning that Retraining opportunities are built into the adventure path.

However, that being said, Paizo has admitted that the game is too hard in places, which can overemphasize narrow, highly optimized game play. I've figured out a few small workarounds that seem to help that issue, thankfully.

[qualiy]

I DMed a full run of age of ashes and had the opposite experience you did. My players never got bored, instead they got more and more excited as they got to higher levels, especially when they got their legendary skill increases at level 15. We might have difference in opinion on the game systems at the very baseline because to me and my group the number of feats in 2e is a HUGE improvement, everywhere you look your fingerprint is on your character. it's very unlike 5e where you basically get no feats, and after I playedas a ranger I felt like I never needed to play another ranger because the difference between a hunter and a monster hunter and a riftwarden is pretty minor.

My guess is your characters were doing what they THOUGHT was optimal, and because of this didn't end up engaging with the system nearly as much as they could have and in fact ended up playing... not very optimally. Think about what you say in your video: "my players were too focused on playing optimally"... followed by "this is the only time I've ever had a tpk!" Aren't those opposing statements? I didn't have any tpks, and my group was far from powergamey/I have the entire book memorized(5 player group, btw)

[BasementMinions]

A shame this video put me off of Pathfinder 2E for so long. It's now my favorite TTRPG. It's interesting rewatching this and seeing how not understanding how PF2E encourages dynamic team play can lead to really sub optimal solo style play. I'm just so glad PF2E is now getting the love that it is. :)

[Somber_Knight]

Me: Quietly plays mutants and masterminds in the corner by myself...

[cameronallan]

I still feel like the DM has a role to play here, I struggle to believe that the DM can't vary the combat enough to force players to think more carefully about their actions.

[Cricket]

This is literally how every ttrpg ever works. You just happened to figure it out while playing PF2E.

[colbyhoman]

the actual best example of variable spell actions is heal/harm, not magic missile. i think that's actually the worst example of spell variability for the reasons you described.

[fridelgard]

As someone who has DM'ed both I understand you perfectly. I never felt like my experience or interaction with my players was ever different from one system to the other. However I know many of my players felt more satisfied in PF2 since they felt their character was their own and not "just another lore bard".
One major thing I think may have harmed your experience though was running age of ashes since that adventure is tough. Players need to play optimally to survive in it (as a player in it I was on my 3rd character before reaching the infamous dragon totems, and would be on my 5th by the time we passed them). By comparison my homebrew campaign enabled less optimal builds and decisions which made SOME of my players much happier though many still prefer 5e.

[Ravensblood]

I was recently made aware that a few of the players talked about in this video responded to it, or reached out to other youtubers to have the record set straight. Having looked into these responses it is clear that this video is a lie, or at least severally misrepresents what actually happened. The reason players were doing the same thing over and over had nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with the DM. These players have come out saying that rules were completely ignored, and that systems were not used because Cody didn't want to take the time to learn how they worked or look them up when needed, leading the players to constantly repeat the things they already knew their DM understood. Even the TPK was Cody's fault, as he disregarded the players attempts to stealth, separate and ambush monsters in the jungle camp. One of his players that was putting in the effort to learn the feats and traits they had frequently "drew his ire" for doing so. Cody, by extension Taking20, has lost any and all credibility he had in my mind. The issues you are so adamantly claim stem from Pathfinder 2e being a "crunch heavy system" are issues that only arose because you couldn't be asked to learn how to play the game.

[matthewjamesmjw]

Better to have a rotation of optimal actions than literally just attack every turn like in 5e lol.

[yobgodababua]

Creating a system with Meaningful Choice is one of the more difficult elements of game design.